Global Peace Index 2012

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

Good point. Pretend that you are the chief advisor to The US President, UN Secretariat and the Leader of Kenya, etc... what would you advise them to do about this camp?

Nothing, solve the underlying problem rather then "solving" the camp problem.

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

Sell tickets? Why is the an issue for the US president...does he have distant relatives in the camp?

Maybe...

carepov · July 3, 2012

Nothing, solve the underlying problem rather then "solving" the camp problem.

About the existing camp: What do you mean nothing? Do you mean status quo, or do you mean withdraw all UN agencies and support?

Who should solve the underlying problem and how?

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

About the existing camp: What do you mean nothing? Do you mean status quo, or do you mean withdraw all UN agencies and support?

Who should solve the underlying problem and how?

Your solution is to feed the people in the camps, and make them reliant on western aid for generations to come. The underlying problem rests in their home country, if you create a safer environment in their home country(s) then and only then we can see them looking for something more than a lifetime of living in a refugee camp. Give man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. If we put all our efforts in maintaining the status quo nothing will EVER get better as we will be enslaving the people because we will delivering food aid and they cannot work for their own upkeep nor can they become self-sufficient because they are in a refugee camp in another country, as I have said above, we need to create a safe environment in their home country(s) in order to give them the hope of becoming self-sufficient rather than dependant on international aid.

bush_cheney2004 · July 3, 2012

I guess if 800,000 Rwandans don't matter...

Well, apparently thay didn't...just ask General Dallaire.

Anyways, what would you advise the leaders of Kenya?

Nothing...Kenya doesn't want my advice...just my money!

carepov · July 3, 2012

Your solution is to feed the people in the camps, and make them reliant on western aid for generations to come. The underlying problem rests in their home country, if you create a safer environment in their home country(s) then and only then we can see them looking for something more than a lifetime of living in a refugee camp. Give man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. If we put all our efforts in maintaining the status quo nothing will EVER get better as we will be enslaving the people because we will delivering food aid and they cannot work for their own upkeep nor can they become self-sufficient because they are in a refugee camp in another country, as I have said above, we need to create a safe environment in their home country(s) in order to give them the hope of becoming self-sufficient rather than dependant on international aid.

Please do not tell me what "my solution" is.

I 100% agree with you that we should try to make Somalia safe for the refugees to return home. I don't have a clue as to how, do you?

These 500,000 people are real, not some textbook problem or "security issue" - real people! Yes I would feed them, are you suggesting that we let them starve?

bush_cheney2004 · July 3, 2012

...These 500,000 people are real, not some textbook problem or "security issue" - real people! Yes I would feed them, are you suggesting that we let them starve?

Whoa....hold the phone! "These 500,000 people" are perfectly capable of starving because of circumstances that "we" do not control, nor should "we". Humanitarian aid is given, not demanded.

Meanwhile...back at the camp:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/07/02/kenya-abducted-aid-workers-released.html

Edited July 3, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

Please do not tell me what "my solution" is.

I 100% agree with you that we should try to make Somalia safe for the refugees to return home. I don't have a clue as to how, do you?

These 500,000 people are real, not some textbook problem or "security issue" - real people! Yes I would feed them, are you suggesting that we let them starve?

You are suggesting that if we all were just a little more sympathetic they would be much better off.

And yes leave the camps at the status quo while working on security in Somalia. Unfortunately I know that Somalia will likely get security and stability on its own at some point in the distant future without support from the west.

carepov · July 3, 2012

Whoa....hold the phone! "These 500,000 people" are perfectly capable of starving because of circumstances that "we" do not control, nor should "we". Humanitarian aid is given, not demanded.

Meanwhile...back at the camp:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/07/02/kenya-abducted-aid-workers-released.html

OK, you are right, I have a problem with the word "we" I will make sure that we work on it!

Back to my hypothetical question about the UN and Kenyan leaders (of course they won't take our advice - but just pretend that they would), would you suggest that they pull out all resources and let 500,000 people starve?

carepov · July 3, 2012

You are suggesting that if we all were just a little more sympathetic they would be much better off.

Sort of - but not exactly.

And yes leave the camps at the status quo while working on security in Somalia. Unfortunately I know that Somalia will likely get security and stability on its own at some point in the distant future without support from the west.

Well then in terms of concrete action we are pretty much in agreement on this situation.

Edited July 3, 2012 by carepov

bush_cheney2004 · July 3, 2012

...Back to my hypothetical question about the UN and Kenyan leaders (of course they won't take our advice - but just pretend that they would), would you suggest that they pull out all resources and let 500,000 people starve?

No, but not for the reasons you may think. Most refugee scenarios are first and foremost a security issue, not humanitarian. The net effect may be to mitigate human suffering, but the policy and resources are committed to preclude a crisis that undermines political and economic stability / security.

"500,000 people starving" is an imprecise, emotional appeal to provide resources out of context, which is why it ultimately fails to get long term traction. About 200,000 people die each day in the world, 10% from starvation depending on which UN numbers you want to believe. So what's special about these particular refugees?

carepov · July 3, 2012

No, but not for the reasons you may think. Most refugee scenarios are first and foremost a security issue, not humanitarian. The net effect may be to mitigate human suffering, but the policy and resources are committed to preclude a crisis that undermines political and economic stability / security.

Well, like Signals.Cpl, I am glad that we all agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab despite our different views.

Also, we all would like to see root cause solved - war in Somalia - but as far I can tell no one has the solution.

I wonder if Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves also agree?

Thank you for the interesting discussion, it has certainly prompted me to learn more about refugees and especially Dadaab. Two very interesting and informative links were:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/25/f-dadaab-goodwin-education-camps.html

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp

"500,000 people starving" is an imprecise, emotional appeal to provide resources out of context, which is why it ultimately fails to get long term traction. About 200,000 people die each day in the world, 10% from starvation depending on which UN numbers you want to believe. So what's special about these particular refugees?

You are correct, my statement was overly-emotional I will try to avoid this kind of language in the future.

I don't know the answer to your question.

Signals.Cpl · July 3, 2012

Well, like Signals.Cpl, I am glad that we all agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab despite our different views.

Also, we all would like to see root cause solved - war in Somalia - but as far I can tell no one has the solution.

We all know what the solution is, its just that the UN is next to useless and cannot do anything, and few other nations have the means to do much in the way of help and none have the will to do anything.

carepov · July 5, 2012

Hey Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves,

Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab? What should be done there?

DogOnPorch · July 5, 2012

Hey Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves,

Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab? What should be done there?

Perhaps elect a mayor and council. Shellenberg can design the city hall since he designed the camps.

You and I both know what needs to be stopped in its tracks.

carepov · July 5, 2012

Perhaps elect a mayor and council. Shellenberg can design the city hall since he designed the camps.

You and I both know what needs to be stopped in its tracks.

Maybe it's me, but I do not understand what you are trying to say in this post. I am interested in your opinion and would appreciate it if you could spell it out for me.

DogOnPorch · July 5, 2012

Maybe it's me, but I do not understand what you are trying to say in this post. I am interested in your opinion and would appreciate it if you could spell it out for me.

I-S-L-A-M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Signals.Cpl · July 5, 2012

Hey Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves,

Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab? What should be done there?

How about you state what you think should be done, I really want to know what you want aside from the "have more sympathy" line.

carepov · July 5, 2012

How about you state what you think should be done, I really want to know what you want aside from the "have more sympathy" line.

Here was my last response when asked "what is your plan?”

... I would like to acknowledge the good work being done by the aid agencies, I'm assuming mostly UN in this case, and help them do better. Improved security would obviously be a priority. In due process, I would like to see Canada resettle a fair share (roughly the same numbers that we admit now) of these people and welcome them.

As much as it would be great to solve the root cause and prevent the refugee problem - I have no idea how.

Yes aside from "doing things better" at the camps (e.g. improved food, education and medical care) and "having more sympathy", it's pretty much the same plan as you and bush_cheney2004 - i.e. status quo with some improved security

Look, I realize that "having more sympathy" may seem like fluffy and useless - but it is a starting point for reducing and preventing suffering. I am not saying that we should give up our relatively luxurious lifestyle in order to help refugees half-way around the world - if I said that I would be a hypocrite.

It would be an improvement and a benefit to Canada if, once a refugee is accepted by the government, Canadian citizens gave them the benefit of the doubt. When meeting a family at a kid's school, or a neighbour, or playing soccer, or being served at Tim Horton’s or Petro-Canada, etc... a simple "Welcome to Canada - good luck!" instead of an attitude like:

... I think about their parents who will come to Canada and drain the resources of the welfare system and those innocent children who will continue to drain the system.

Why not?

carepov · July 5, 2012

I-S-L-A-M

Thanks for "spelling it out" for me!

Unfortunately I still don't understand. Are you saying Islam needs to be stopped in its tracks? If so, why and how?

DogOnPorch · July 5, 2012

Thanks for "spelling it out" for me!

Unfortunately I still don't understand. Are you saying Islam needs to be stopped in its tracks? If so, why and how?

There's nothing to fear from Islam in Africa. It is a peaceful religion only wanting to bring the truth to humankind. Since we've got that out of the way, perhaps you can now spell out your solution to the problem.

carepov · July 6, 2012

There's nothing to fear from Islam in Africa. It is a peaceful religion only wanting to bring the truth to humankind.

Look, I still don't get it. You still haven't answered my recent questions, maybe if I offered a multiple choice:

1. Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab?

a) Yes

b.) No

2. What should be done there?

a) Much more resources should be dedicated to the refugees

b.) Slightly more resources

c) Status quo

d) Less resources

e) Remove all resources

f) other - please specify

Since we've got that out of the way, perhaps you can now spell out your solution to the problem.

I have said numerous times - I have no solution - I don't even understand the problem! Regarding Dadaab, my answers are 1. a) and 2. b.)

DogOnPorch · July 6, 2012

Permission to treat the witness as hostile?

:lol:

1. I doubt those camps turned small cities are going anywhere but up.

2. Other please specify: The march of Islam tends to be a major factor in the conflicts that aren't between various African tribes. Heck...even some of those that are. China has its fingers in the region making big promises for rights to this or that resource. Perhaps they should take over humanitarian actions. But sure, my not caring enough is the problem with Africa.

carepov · July 6, 2012

Permission to treat the witness as hostile?

1. I doubt those camps turned small cities are going anywhere but up.

2. Other please specify: The march of Islam tends to be a major factor in the conflicts that aren't between various African tribes. Heck...even some of those that are. China has its fingers in the region making big promises for rights to this or that resource. Perhaps they should take over humanitarian actions. But sure, my not caring enough is the problem with Africa.

OK - you are obviously on a different intellectual plane that I cannot comprehend. Good luck with your Crusade.

Signals.Cpl · July 6, 2012

Look, I realize that "having more sympathy" may seem like fluffy and useless - but it is a starting point for reducing and preventing suffering. I am not saying that we should give up our relatively luxurious lifestyle in order to help refugees half-way around the world - if I said that I would be a hypocrite.

Then what does having more sympathy do? Do you think that having more sympathy will increase international debt when the government is cutting essential services like the HUSAR teams? Do you think that individuals with more sympathy will donate more? If I understand you right, you wish we had more sympathy for the starving refugees but you acknowledge its unlikely we will be giving anything up to improve the lives of those people, what exactly is that extra sympathy going to do when many Canadians families are struggling to pay the bills?

It would be an improvement and a benefit to Canada if, once a refugee is accepted by the government, Canadian citizens gave them the benefit of the doubt.

How would it be an improvement and a benefit to Canada? We need to keep refugee status for those who are actually in need of refugee status, starvation in your home country is not a proper reason for refugee status mainly because there are hundreds of millions suffering that fate and likely the once who made it to Canada to claim refugee status are not exactly to most in need.

When meeting a family at a kid's school, or a neighbour, or playing soccer, or being served at Tim Horton’s or Petro-Canada, etc... a simple "Welcome to Canada - good luck!" instead of an attitude like:

How will you chose who gets to be a refugee in Canada, and who gets to stay back home in the refugee Camp and starve? Do we take refugees from one camp, or a lottery system to collect from each camp world wide? Do we pay for their airfare and then give financial assistance when they arrive? And if we give them financial assistance as I assume the government still does for how long do we do that? When do they get Canadian citizenship? Are there going to be any requirements that we will place on the refugees? Learn english and start working in X months, or do we let them remain on government assistance for 5,10, 20 or 50 years?