Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Okay, signals. What about the women who come to Canada because they want to and get a job as being a stripper? I guess they won't be getting a choice if bill C-38 passes. What about the women who come to Canada wanting to be strippers and get forced in to prostitution? Which groups needs do we put higher? The group that chooses to come and gets what they want or the group that chooses to come and gets forced in to slavery? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
jbg Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Where will the strippers come from? Most of them are foreigners. I guess they will have to be college chicks from Canada. I wonder how Judy Sgro feels about this? Or will Hedy Fry be the first volunteer to serve as stripper?Parrish the thought. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
CPCFTW Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Okay, signals. What about the women who come to Canada because they want to and get a job as being a stripper? I guess they won't be getting a choice if bill C-38 passes. Oh no, what have we done!?!? Quote
bleeding heart Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Its fine by me if you don't care if women are forced in to prostitution, but to me it has to be a free choice, Not only is that not Dre's position...it's the opposite of his position. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Not only is that not Dre's position...it's the opposite of his position. This is really too bad, because coming to work in Canada is probably the best thing that could happen to these women. Even if they are being forced in to prostitution? Their fate will likely be much worse wherever else they go, as will the level of exploitation. So that makes it ok to exploit them in Canada as it will be more humane?? Sad that these idiots would do this under the false pretense of helping these women. They are doing the exact opposite. Doing the exact opposite? How so? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Not only is that not Dre's position...it's the opposite of his position. At some point you realize it's not worth replying to these things. Quote
Moonbox Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 At some point you realize it's not worth replying to these things. Actually it looks like he's arguing with a bunch of children. You guys haven't really made an intelligent point in 4 pages. The argument is really simple. The likelihood of trouble for a young foreign woman who comes to Canada specifically for the purpose of stripping is exponentially higher than for the born-and-raised Canadian woman. Stripping is far from an essential service and the Canadian economy isn't exactly going to grind to a halt if our strip joints aren't full of 18 year old Russians. By not granting work visas to strippers, the government eliminates a very obvious, visible and vulnerable supply of young women for criminals to exploit. Since Canada is neither morally nor legally obligated to grant work visas to these people, and since it wouldn't hurt our economy in the slightest, it's difficult to see how this is bad for Canada. I mean, you guys are ACTUALLY making the argument that preventing young, naive, likely poor and uneducated foreign women from putting themselves in EXTREMELY vulnerable positions is HARMING/VICTIMIZING them!?!? Holy crap... Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Don't ban strip clubs or anything, if I'm to take your narrative as gospel. Moreover, am I to understand that your suggestion is visas should only be granted to people who work in "essential" services? Who's defining these "essential" services? Quote
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 By not granting work visas to strippers, the government eliminates a very obvious, visible and vulnerable supply of young women for criminals to exploit. It doesn't eliminate anything genius. They will just be smuggled into the country illegally now. And then you will have undocumented strippers in Canada which will create more problems for law enforcement. But you seem to have it all figured out. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 It doesn't eliminate anything genius. They will just be smuggled into the country illegally now. And then you will have undocumented strippers in Canada which will create more problems for law enforcement. But you seem to have it all figured out. Yeah, by that logic we shouldn't make sex with children illegal because the pedophiles will just go hide in the shadows and commit those acts anyway. Or we shouldn't make bribery illegal because once again bribes will be done in the shadows thus harder for LEO's to prevent? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 Yeah, by that logic we shouldn't make sex with children illegal because the pedophiles will just go hide in the shadows and commit those acts anyway. Or we shouldn't make bribery illegal because once again bribes will be done in the shadows thus harder for LEO's to prevent? Pedophiles already hide in the shadows. Bribes are already done in the shadows. Foreign women who come to Canada to strip are not hiding in the shadows but they will be if we don't know they are here. If you don't know they are here then they are ghosts pretty much. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Pedophiles already hide in the shadows. Bribes are already done in the shadows. Foreign women who come to Canada to strip are not hiding in the shadows but they will be if we don't know they are here. If you don't know they are here then they are ghosts pretty much. So you are saying that its bad to make the actions of pedophiles illegal because it just puts them in to the shadows? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
bleeding heart Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Since this topic is very much about what's best for the sex-trade workers themselves, I'd be interested in hearing their advocates' take on it; advocates for sex workers, as long-term interested (and generally sober and compassionate) voices on the subject, might have some important viewpoints on this. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Moonbox Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Don't ban strip clubs or anything, if I'm to take your narrative as gospel. Did I say anything about banning strip clubs? Moreover, am I to understand that your suggestion is visas should only be granted to people who work in "essential" services? Who's defining these "essential" services? That's not my suggestion at all. My suggestion is not to grant them to young women working as strippers. The basis for this suggestion is that the women put themselves in very vulnerable positions and the likelihood of them being criminally exploited is high. I only mentioned the term 'essential service' ironically, but it's interesting that this is what you latched on to out of my whole argument. I'm looking for a good explanation on how this in ANY way makes Canadians worse off, because realistically, your critism seems based more on being an anti-Harper hack rather than any review of the proposal's merits. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 So you are saying that its bad to make the actions of pedophiles illegal because it just puts them in to the shadows? It is already illegal to be a pedophile. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. This is about foreign strippers being barred from attaining a work visa to come to Canada. Quote
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) My suggestion is not to grant them to young women working as strippers. The basis for this suggestion is that the women put themselves in very vulnerable positions and the likelihood of them being criminally exploited is high. Oh, here comes the moral police. Give me a break. These women will just find another way into Canada. They will be "undocumented". Do you know what that means? It means Canada will not know they are here thus making it MORE DANGEROUS for their well being. The likelihood of these women being exploited will be incredibly higher than it would be if they came here on a visa. You don't give a damn about these women. Edited June 13, 2012 by Anti-Am Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 It is already illegal to be a pedophile. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. This is about foreign strippers being barred from attaining a work visa to come to Canada. I know its illegal, but seems that you are arguing that if we prevent exploitable women from coming to Canada that we will force the issue in to the shadows. Basically since we cannot completely eradicate the problem we might as well not try. We will probably never completely eradicate bribery and pedophiles, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying or make it legal. If we make it harder to smuggle someone in to the country, it means that some might be turned away from doing so not because of morals but because of the effort involved. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Double Post. Edited June 13, 2012 by Signals.Cpl Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Yeah, by that logic we shouldn't make sex with children illegal because the pedophiles will just go hide in the shadows and commit those acts anyway. Or we shouldn't make bribery illegal because once again bribes will be done in the shadows thus harder for LEO's to prevent? No. Your metaphor wrong. The logic you're disputing says you're making the child a criminal for getting into the pedophile's van. You're arguing that this will somehow stop pedophiles. Quote
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 I know its illegal, but seems that you are arguing that if we prevent exploitable women from coming to Canada that we will force the issue in to the shadows. Basically since we cannot completely eradicate the problem we might as well not try. We will probably never completely eradicate bribery and pedophiles, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying or make it legal. If we make it harder to smuggle someone in to the country, it means that some might be turned away from doing so not because of morals but because of the effort involved. Let me ask you a simple question. Since people who come here on work visas have to check in with someone from the government every so often, don't you think they would be better off, than say being smuggled into the country and the government does not know you are here? Which seems safer for these women to you? Quote
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Since this topic is very much about what's best for the sex-trade workers themselves, I'd be interested in hearing their advocates' take on it; advocates for sex workers, as long-term interested (and generally sober and compassionate) voices on the subject, might have some important viewpoints on this. The problem is that these sorts of laws drive the problem underground. Rather than fix the hole in the wall, the Conservatives' legislation merely hangs a picture over it. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 No. Your metaphor wrong. The logic you're disputing says you're making the child a criminal for getting into the pedophile's van. You're arguing that this will somehow stop pedophiles. How is my logic arguing about making children the criminals? Please be specific... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 Let me ask you a simple question. Since people who come here on work visas have to check in with someone from the government every so often, don't you think they would be better off, than say being smuggled into the country and the government does not know you are here? Which seems safer for these women to you? Government that checks up on them? Please elaborate on what "checks in" means? Does it mean that they make sure you are ok, or if you are paying taxes or if you are in the country?Does the government come to the workplace and check on the living conditions? What does this check in me? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Anti-Am Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Posted June 13, 2012 Government that checks up on them? Please elaborate on what "checks in" means? Does it mean that they make sure you are ok, or if you are paying taxes or if you are in the country?Does the government come to the workplace and check on the living conditions? What does this check in me? A government worker will have them come to their office. They talk about how things are going. The worker probes the situation to determine if they are okay. If signs of abuse are there they would proceed with protocol. You didn't actually think once people come here on a work visa that they are set free..did you? Now, I believe you have a question to answer. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 13, 2012 Report Posted June 13, 2012 How is my logic arguing about making children the criminals? Please be specific... Because, as it has been pointed out already, this legislation targets the foreign workers rather than the traffickers. Quote
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