Strippers to be stripped of their work visas

[Signals.Cpl]

The argument is to make laws that actually protect the victims, rather than laws that make it harder to protect victims.

So you want to protect the people we allowed to be victimized after and only if we catch them as opposed to eliminating the victims as a legal entity?

[Signals.Cpl]

Reality is not black and white CPCFTW. And not all strippers and prostitutes are women. Men are strippers and prostitutes too. They might have had an abusive childhood. An unfortunate turn of events may have led them to become a stripper or prostitute. And here you are blaming the victims for their unfortunate circumstances. It is obvious you do not understand and never will understand the reality of this world.

When does one stop being victim? If one is being abused as a child are they allowed freedom to commit any crime they please and have a go to excuse to get out of jail?

[Signals.Cpl]

The most common money laundering front is a strip club, yes.

Source?

You seem to really hate everything that is criminal.

And you love criminal activity?

As if its bad because it is illegal.

So you think its good even though its illegal?

Law enforcement allow illicit activities to go on for a number of reasons.

Biggest reason being they need eyes and ears on street level. Instead of throwing everyone in prison they use them for information, willingly & unwillingly.

Most pedal drugs, yes. Not all are in prostitution. Prostitution is very risky these days. Smuggling stolen guns & goods, yes.

Where do you get this from? I have a sneaking suspicion its from Law and Order.

[dre]

Even if they are being forced in to prostitution?

So that makes it ok to exploit them in Canada as it will be more humane??

Doing the exact opposite? How so?

If they are being forced into prostitution thats illegal here and we should enforce the law. But this is pure assumption and speculation. A lot of women want to come to the west and do this kind of work for a lot of different reasons, and to many being a stripper in Canada is a huge step up from where they are now.

So that makes it ok to exploit them in Canada as it will be more humane??

No but its ok for them to exploit themselves if they want to. A women who wants to come here to work at a legal profession should be allowed to. They should be blocked from that by a bunch of moralistic creeps based on a bunch of assumptions and false pretenses.

Doing the exact opposite? How so?

I already explained that.

[Signals.Cpl]

I have yet to see anything that shows foreign strippers are forced into Canada using work visas provided by pimps.

That is your point to prove. So lets see it.

Example 2: Eva

Eva lived with her brother in a big apartment in Hungary. She worked in the film industry, making music videos. When she realized that they were far behind in rent she checked the newspaper for better paying jobs abroad. She found an advertisement looking for nannies and housekeepers for families in Canada, the United States, and England. Eva called and was told of a job opportunity in Toronto, Canada with a Hungarian family. Eva didn’t speak any English when she arrived in Canada, and after some difficulties in customs she was taken to a locked motel room where she was raped and beaten. The contract Eva had signed for the housekeeping job was really for a job as an exotic dancer. Eva was brought into Canada under a ‘stripper’ visa and forced to work at a club; all the money she made went to her captors. Eva eventually managed to escape with the help of the club manager and went to the Canadian police. The stripper visa program no longer exists in Canada. For more about Eva please visit: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/map/eva.html

Source:

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=400&Itemid=20

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/map/eva.html

[dre]

So you want to protect the people we allowed to be victimized after and only if we catch them as opposed to eliminating the victims as a legal entity?

Barring a women from eastern europe or asia from entering Canada isnt protecting them from anything. Its denying them an opportunity that in most cases is among the best they have available. And you would do it based on no real knowledge at all, just a bunch of assumptions and speculation. You have absolutely no idea that whether on average these women improve their lives by coming to Canada or make them worse. Absolutely none.

If theres organized criminals here in Canada that are coercing these women to be prostitutes, or organized criminals in the countries they come from then we should investigate those crimes and throw those people in jail. But what we really need to do is decriminalize prostitution and stop needlessly destroying womens lives in a war on sex and drugs that is an abject failure by any objective measure available.

If you want to make these peoples lives better then treat them the same way you would treat anyone else that wants to immigrate here to work in a legal profession.

[Signals.Cpl]

If they are being forced into prostitution thats illegal here and we should enforce the law. But this is pure assumption and speculation. A lot of women want to come to the west and do this kind of work for a lot of different reasons, and to many being a stripper in Canada is a huge step up from where they are now.

YEs, and for many of them its a huge step down towards slavery.

No but its ok for them to exploit themselves if they want to.

No one is saying anything about them exploiting themselves, we are arguing that someone else will force them to do things that they are unwilling too do...prostitution...

A women who wants to come here to work at a legal profession should be allowed to.

When you guarantee that she won't become essentially a slave.

They should be blocked from that by a bunch of moralistic creeps based on a bunch of assumptions and false pretenses.

Yeah, now they have a bunch of creeps who prefer to leave women in to a exceptionally risky situation in order to satisfy their own desires whatever they may be.

[dre]

YEs, and for many of them its a huge step down towards slavery.

No one is saying anything about them exploiting themselves, we are arguing that someone else will force them to do things that they are unwilling too do...prostitution...

When you guarantee that she won't become essentially a slave.

Yeah, now they have a bunch of creeps who prefer to leave women in to a exceptionally risky situation in order to satisfy their own desires whatever they may be.

Again, youre assuming that the womens entry into Canada correlates with her entry into a situation where shes being exploited. You have absolutely no idea if thats the case or not.

Yeah, now they have a bunch of creeps who prefer to leave women in to a exceptionally risky situation in order to satisfy their own desires whatever they may be.

Thats their choice to make and none of your god damn business. And your personal subjective opinion of their profession is wholly and completely irrelevant.

When you guarantee that she won't become essentially a slave.

There is not guarantees whether or not they are let into Canada or not, but we DO know that at least women here in Canada have rights and protection under the law which is more than you can say for many of the other destinations available to them.

[Signals.Cpl]

Barring a women from eastern europe or asia from entering Canada isnt protecting them from anything. Its denying them an opportunity that in most cases is among the best they have available. And you would do it based on no real knowledge at all, just a bunch of assumptions and speculation. You have absolutely no idea that whether on average these women improve their lives by coming to Canada or make them worse. Absolutely none.

Seeing as I come from a country in Eastern Europe, I can tell you that the situation although not quite rosy is far better then being enslaved in Canada. Did the slave traders who brought people from Africa to the US Improve their lives and the lives of their descendants?

I'm not out to prevent people from coming to Canada to improve their lives however that may be, but unless you can provide a solution to the problem you are in fact arguing for enslaving the percentage of women who do come to be strippers rather then arguing for the percentage who get exactly what they signed up for. How do you decide who's rights are more important? The once being enslaved or the lucky once making the money doing the job promised.

If theres organized criminals here in Canada that are coercing these women to be prostitutes, or organized criminals in the countries they come from then we should investigate those crimes and throw those people in jail.

Preventing the criminals from legally bringing people to exploit and making it harder and less economically feasible for them to do so IS fighting the criminals.

But what we really need to do is decriminalize prostitution and stop needlessly destroying womens lives in a war on sex and drugs that is an abject failure by any objective measure available.

Again, slight difference between willing prostates and unwilling prostitutes.

If you want to make these peoples lives better then treat them the same way you would treat anyone else that wants to immigrate here to work in a legal profession.

Guarantee them the EXACT SAME RIGHTS AND PROTECTIONS and then we can talk. Guarantee them that they will get what they signed up for rather then someone changing the rules as soon as they land...

[Signals.Cpl]

Again, youre assuming that the womens entry into Canada correlates with her entry into a situation where shes being exploited. You have absolutely no idea if thats the case or not.

Yeah so until we have solid statistics over a timeframe of a few decades we will not enact any laws to protect and/or prevent vulnerable women from being exploited and ignore the problem until we have given it sufficient study.

If I tell you drinking and driving is bad, would you expect that we wit 10-15 years to get proper grasp on the depth of the problem and in the mean time we let people die in order to be the statistic?

Thats their choice to make and none of your god damn business.

It's my business if someone else makes those choices for them.

And your personal subjective opinion of their profession is wholly and completely irrelevant.

As I have said, I have no problem with their profession as long as they willingly and knowingly engage in that profession instead of being forced in to it.

There is not guarantees whether or not they are let into Canada or not, but we DO know that at least women here in Canada have rights and protection under the law which is more than you can say for many of the other destinations available to them.

You are 100% right, until they get off the plane and in to the hands of their abusers and they don't get those rights and protections.

[dre]

Seeing as I come from a country in Eastern Europe, I can tell you that the situation although not quite rosy is far better then being enslaved in Canada. Did the slave traders who brought people from Africa to the US Improve their lives and the lives of their descendants?

I'm not out to prevent people from coming to Canada to improve their lives however that may be, but unless you can provide a solution to the problem you are in fact arguing for enslaving the percentage of women who do come to be strippers rather then arguing for the percentage who get exactly what they signed up for. How do you decide who's rights are more important? The once being enslaved or the lucky once making the money doing the job promised.

Preventing the criminals from legally bringing people to exploit and making it harder and less economically feasible for them to do so IS fighting the criminals.

Again, slight difference between willing prostates and unwilling prostitutes.

Guarantee them the EXACT SAME RIGHTS AND PROTECTIONS and then we can talk. Guarantee them that they will get what they signed up for rather then someone changing the rules as soon as they land...

Again more assumptions and speculation. YOu have absolutely no idea whether these women on average are improving their lives in coming to a country with one of the highest standards of living in the world, or refusing them entry so that they will be sent "somewhere else".

Again, slight difference between willing prostates and unwilling prostitutes.

Well... finally something we can agree on... prostates and prostitutes are totally different things.

Preventing the criminals from legally bringing people to exploit and making it harder and less economically feasible for them to do so IS fighting the criminals.

That entire premise is utterly ridiculous. You arent just blocking women who are being trafficked by organized crime, you are blocking ALL of them... yet you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how many fit into either of those two categories. You want to block and entire class of immigrants based on a bunch of assumptions and speculation on what might happen to a subset of them.

You wont help these people you will hurt them. No matter which group they belong to or what the scenario is you will make their lives worse.

1. If they ARE already in the clutches of a sex trafficking organization they will simply be shipped somewhere else now, likely to a place where such women have less rights and legal protection.

2. If they ARENT and they want to do this by choice as a way of moving from a shitty part of the world to one of the best places to live... then youll phuck THEM over too.

Theres no concievable scenario where you will help anyone.

[dre]

If I tell you drinking and driving is bad, would you expect that we wit 10-15 years to get proper grasp on the depth of the problem and in the mean time we let people die in order to be the statistic?

Yup and thats exactly what we did and rightly so. We banned drunk driving and ratcheted up penalties based on statistics and how big the problem really was.

Its called living in an evidence based reality (where i live).... as oppose to a suspicion based reality (where you live).

[Anti-Am]

Signals just basically said it's better to be a stripper in Eastern Europe than Canada. It's hard to take someone who says stuff like that seriously.

Alrighty, I've had it with this topic. I'm tired of old men telling women what they can't do.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Anti-Am

[Signals.Cpl]

Again more assumptions and speculation. YOu have absolutely no idea whether these women on average are improving their lives in coming to a country with one of the highest standards of living in the world, or refusing them entry so that they will be sent "somewhere else".

And you have no idea wether they get to enjoy our standard of living.

Well... finally something we can agree on... prostates and prostitutes are totally different things.

That entire premise is utterly ridiculous. You arent just blocking women who are being trafficked by organized crime, you are blocking ALL of them... yet you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how many fit into either of those two categories. You want to block and entire class of immigrants based on a bunch of assumptions and speculation on what might happen to a subset of them.

1) Not immigrants

2) You want to allow a vulnerable people to continue entering the country on the assumption that the abuse is better here then somewhere else.

3) You are arguing about putting vulnerable women in situations where there is great risk of extreme exploitation on an assumption that few have to suffer. How many women raped repeatedly and forced in to prostitution is just right? 1? 10? 100? 1,000? How many women have to be forced in to prostitution and repeatedly and brutally raped for you to be satisfied that there is a problem?

You wont help these people you will hurt them. No matter which group they belong to or what the scenario is you will make their lives worse.

What were you saying about assumptions?

1. If they ARE already in the clutches of a sex trafficking organization they will simply be shipped somewhere else now, likely to a place where such women have less rights and legal protection.

So once again, your argument is that we should let them be raped here in a country with a higher standard of living then let them be raped in a country with a lower standard of living? Never heard and argument quite like that before.

2. If they ARENT and they want to do this by choice as a way of moving from a shitty part of the world to one of the best places to live... then youll phuck THEM over too.

Again, I doubt that there are many places worse then daily rapes, and no freedom regardless of the country that the women is being raped in or its standard of living.

Theres no concievable scenario where you will help anyone.

Example 2: Eva

Eva lived with her brother in a big apartment in Hungary. She worked in the film industry, making music videos. When she realized that they were far behind in rent she checked the newspaper for better paying jobs abroad. She found an advertisement looking for nannies and housekeepers for families in Canada, the United States, and England. Eva called and was told of a job opportunity in Toronto, Canada with a Hungarian family. Eva didn’t speak any English when she arrived in Canada, and after some difficulties in customs she was taken to a locked motel room where she was raped and beaten. The contract Eva had signed for the housekeeping job was really for a job as an exotic dancer. Eva was brought into Canada under a ‘stripper’ visa and forced to work at a club; all the money she made went to her captors. Eva eventually managed to escape with the help of the club manager and went to the Canadian police. The stripper visa program no longer exists in Canada. For more about Eva please visit: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/map/eva.html

She might disagree with that one....

http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=400&Itemid=20

Or does she fall in the acceptable risk? What about the others like her?

[Signals.Cpl]

Yup and thats exactly what we did and rightly so. We banned drunk driving and ratcheted up penalties based on statistics and how big the problem really was.

Its called living in an evidence based reality (where i live).... as oppose to a suspicion based reality (where you live).

So you propose we identify a problem and spend years if not decades to gather the evidence on the while people die needless deaths which could have been prevented or at least limited?

[Anti-Am]

So you propose we identify a problem and spend years if not decades to gather the evidence on the while people die needless deaths which could have been prevented or at least limited?

Nothing is being prevented. They will find their way into the country illegally. All you're doing is creating more crime.

[Signals.Cpl]

Signals just basically said it's better to be a stripper in Eastern Europe than Canada.

If you can't read thats not my problem.

It's hard to take someone who says stuff like that seriously.

Thats what we were all thinking about you old man.

Alrighty, I've had it with this topic. I'm tired of old men telling women what they can't do.

Run along now... I'm tired of creepy old men who are willing to let women be abused, raped repeatedly, denied their freedom and basically treated like a slave just to let the once who are lucky enough not to be exploited have a job....

[Signals.Cpl]

Nothing is being prevented. They will find their way into the country illegally. All you're doing is creating more crime.

Are you retarded?

If a women is being forced in to prostitution AGAINST HER WILL and we make that harder for her abuser but they still find a way to do that how is THAT CREATING A CRIME?

[Anti-Am]

Are you retarded?

If a women is being forced in to prostitution AGAINST HER WILL and we make that harder for her abuser but they still find a way to do that how is THAT CREATING A CRIME?

You're not making anything harder for human traffickers. That is their job and they will always find ways around laws because law enforcement has to play by their rules while criminals do not. All that will happen here is the government will not know who is in the country. There will be no checks and balances with regards to government workers checking on these girls because they are not here on visa. Good fricking grief man get your head out of the sand. What you are proposing is going to leave these women (if they are here against their own will) with no one to talk to if they sense they are in trouble.

Eff this, shit, I can't change your mind. What the hell do I care anyway if you do or don't.

[Signals.Cpl]

You're not making anything harder for human traffickers. That is their job and they will always find ways around laws because law enforcement has to play by their rules while criminals do not. All that will happen here is the government will not know who is in the country. There will be no checks and balances with regards to government workers checking on these girls because they are not here on visa. Good fricking grief man get your head out of the sand. What you are proposing is going to leave these women (if they are here against their own will) with no one to talk to if they sense they are in trouble.

Eff this, shit, I can't change your mind. What the hell do I care anyway if you do or don't.

Im tired of old man like you who can't thing... Who do they have to talk to right now?

Example 2: Eva

Eva lived with her brother in a big apartment in Hungary. She worked in the film industry, making music videos. When she realized that they were far behind in rent she checked the newspaper for better paying jobs abroad. She found an advertisement looking for nannies and housekeepers for families in Canada, the United States, and England. Eva called and was told of a job opportunity in Toronto, Canada with a Hungarian family. Eva didn’t speak any English when she arrived in Canada, and after some difficulties in customs she was taken to a locked motel room where she was raped and beaten. The contract Eva had signed for the housekeeping job was really for a job as an exotic dancer. Eva was brought into Canada under a ‘stripper’ visa and forced to work at a club; all the money she made went to her captors. Eva eventually managed to escape with the help of the club manager and went to the Canadian police. The stripper visa program no longer exists in Canada. For more about Eva please visit: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/map/eva.html

I'm sure people being oppressed are none of your concern as long as the cheap forces sex slaves are available to you in Canada. Honestly you have no argument, if we can't prevent it we might as well join in on it? We can't prevent murder so why not legalize shooting people in the face? We can't prevent many crimes, do we make them legal so we can see them being done? No thank you old man...

[Anti-Am]

I'm in my mid 20's. I think like a young, open minded person.

[Signals.Cpl]

I'm in my mid 20's. I think like a young, open minded person.

Open minded? Really?

[Anti-Am]

Open minded? Really?

I don't base my opinions on religious morals.

[Signals.Cpl]

I don't base my opinions on religious morals.

Neither do I, my opinions are based on common sense...

[Anti-Am]

Neither do I, my opinions are based on common sense...

common sense does not exist.