cybercoma Posted July 3, 2012 Report Posted July 3, 2012 That's a red herring. The 'media" plays closer attention to shootings in public places where bystanders get hit. Like cops in Montreal doing this, for example. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 3, 2012 Report Posted July 3, 2012 That's a red herring. The 'media" plays closer attention to shootings in public places where bystanders get hit. So you're saying that because they're new to the country, they're not yet familiar enough with the geography to know where to do their crimes so that they'll achieve lower profile ? Lots of people making excuses for immigrant crime on this thread. Yes, I'm being facetious but you should note that now much of such problems are openly declared to be about perceptions rather than fact. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
carepov Posted July 3, 2012 Report Posted July 3, 2012 IF there were stats available, (which when kept were deemed racist for some reason), I suggest that Jamaican-Somali gangs are responsible for more violent crime today in Canada. Usually drug related against one another. Once upon a time the Irish perhaps, the Mafiosa, Tongs and bikers were the main source of crime in Canada. But certainly not to the degree that of today's gangs that think nothing of shoot outs in public place. I'm sure that the bikers and others are still in the trade of crime, but they certainly don't make the news like the black gangs shooting one another, and the occasional bystander, do. Hi Peeves, Earlier in the discussion I brought forward the following report studying crime and visible minorities. I did not see a response from, what do you think? http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r144/r144_e.pdf To everyone on both sides of the crime/immigration debate in the last few days: This argument has gotten stupid, to paraphrase: "I read in the paper that black gangs are shooting up bystanders", what "about that time white guys killed the baby". How about we re-cap our position and try to provide supporting data: My position is that the crime rate is declining and that increased immigration does not increase crime. - As per StatsCan, police reported crime rates are declining and are at ~40 year low, this supports my position - Overall, visible minorities are under-represented in our prisons, this supports my position *** Here is some new conjecture on my part: -Let's assume that violent crime is inversely proportional to one's level of education -Let's also assume that refugees are on average less educated than the average Canadian -Assume that economic immigrants have more education than the average Canadian -Here is a fact (source: Government of Canada via Wikipedia): "In 2010, Canada accepted 280,681 immigrants (permanent and temporary) of which 186,913 (67%) were Economic immigrants; 60,220 (22%) were Family class; 24,696 (9%) were Refugees; and 8,845 (2%) were Other" -I would not jump to this conclusion (as I'm sure others would) but maybe it’s the refugees that are committing more crimes? -Also, I would assume that economic immigrants would lower Canada’s crime rate My recommendations: -Keep refugee quotas the same for now (25,000 seems like a reasonable number for Canada) -Study the issues facing refugees and make improvements / investments to ensure they are better integrated and become productive Canadians -Gradually increase economic immigration quotas What do you think? Quote
Argus Posted July 4, 2012 Report Posted July 4, 2012 My position is that the crime rate is declining and that increased immigration does not increase crime. - As per StatsCan, police reported crime rates are declining and are at ~40 year low, this supports my position - Overall, visible minorities are under-represented in our prisons, this supports my position As I pointed out from the data you supplied, while overall, immigrants/ethnic minorities may not be overrepresented in prisons, they most definitely are in Ontario. Now what we need to determine is the reason. Because if immigrants are underrepresented overall, and yet overrepresented in Ontario, then the disparity between the criminal activities of immigrants in Ontario and the immigrants elsewhere is quite high. So does Ontario get a different kind of immigrant than Alberta or BC or Quebec? My perception is that Ontario's source countries lean more towards the Caribbean, Africa and the middle east than the western provinces, which lean more towards Asia. As to Quebec, it gets a smaller number of immigrants and selects them due to language abilities, so that might throw things off considerably for them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted July 4, 2012 Report Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) As I pointed out from the data you supplied, while overall, immigrants/ethnic minorities may not be overrepresented in prisons, they most definitely are in Ontario.My perception is that Ontario's source countries lean more towards the Caribbean, Africa and the middle east than the western provinces, which lean more towards Asia. As to Quebec, it gets a smaller number of immigrants and selects them due to language abilities, so that might throw things off considerably for them. Is there a link we could see please? YOu may want oto factor in how a black man is 27 times more likely to be held on bail, or how a bloack man is overwhelmingly favoured with drug distribution vs posession vs a white man. There are a ton of reasons On page 9 of this thread, post #131 , the stats posted for the country's incarcerated (not Ont) are 71% domestic white, and 12% domestic native . Are you saying Ontario bucks that not slightly but in complete reverse? Edited July 4, 2012 by guyser Quote
carepov Posted July 4, 2012 Report Posted July 4, 2012 As I pointed out from the data you supplied, while overall, immigrants/ethnic minorities may not be overrepresented in prisons, they most definitely are in Ontario. Now what we need to determine is the reason. Because if immigrants are underrepresented overall, and yet overrepresented in Ontario, then the disparity between the criminal activities of immigrants in Ontario and the immigrants elsewhere is quite high. So does Ontario get a different kind of immigrant than Alberta or BC or Quebec? My perception is that Ontario's source countries lean more towards the Caribbean, Africa and the middle east than the western provinces, which lean more towards Asia. As to Quebec, it gets a smaller number of immigrants and selects them due to language abilities, so that might throw things off considerably for them. Several key facts point away from your theory that immigrants are committing more crimes in Ontario: 1. While overall it may be a valid assumption that a visible minority is an immigrant - this is not the case for Blacks: 45% of Blacks were born in Canada. 2. "Those [immigrants from 2001-2006] headed to Toronto tend to come from India and China." 3. Blacks in the US are over-represented in the criminal system similarly to Canada. 4. There are no "black countries" on the top 10 list for immigrants The Top 10 countries of origin for immigrants to Canada between 2001 and 2006: 1.China - 155,105 2.India - 129,140 3.Philippines - 77,880 4.Pakistan - 57,630 5.United States - 38,770 6.South Korea - 35,450 7.Romania - 28,080 8.Iran - 27,600 9.United Kingdom - 25,655 10.Colombia - 25,310 http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/immigration/patterns.html (thank you guyser!) http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r144/r144_e.pdf To me it is looking more and more like increasing our immigration quotas will actually continue to reduce crime in Canada! Quote
Argus Posted July 4, 2012 Report Posted July 4, 2012 Is there a link we could see please? I am referring to your own link. On page 9 of this thread, post #131 , the stats posted for the country's incarcerated (not Ont) are 71% domestic white, and 12% domestic native . Are you saying Ontario bucks that not slightly but in complete reverse? In post #132 I pointed out that the figure for incarceration was disproportionate in Ontario - 47% Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted July 4, 2012 Report Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) I am referring to your own link. Sorry, thought there was another link out there.Thanks In post #132 I pointed out that the figure for incarceration was disproportionate in Ontario - 47% I am having trouble reconciling the data. If there are 12,500 in prison in canada, and we have stats that say 78% are native bred caucasions (8700 or so)+ 12% Native, then we have 10% visible minority . However, in that link it states that 3 of 10 vis/minority are born here.So on avg, in canada , if we crunch those numbers, then of 12,500 fully 11250 are CDN born, plus 30% of the remainder (1250) is 375. This would mean of 12500 locked up, 11625 are CDN born. A thousand would be immigrants. But we know there are more than a thousand in prison in Ont. Ok wait a sec. I have just realized something. I was coming from the angle of Federal prisons, not provincial which will skew the results. Are you talking fed or prov ? If you are talking Provincial, then dont forget that immigrations holds, remand holds, no bail holds are counted too, whcih kind of skews the stats Edited July 4, 2012 by guyser Quote
bleeding heart Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 IF there were stats available, (which when kept were deemed racist for some reason), I suggest that Jamaican-Somali gangs are responsible for more violent crime today in Canada. Usually drug related against one another. Once upon a time the Irish perhaps, the Mafiosa, Tongs and bikers were the main source of crime in Canada. But certainly not to the degree that of today's gangs that think nothing of shoot outs in public place. I'm sure that the bikers and others are still in the trade of crime, but they certainly don't make the news like the black gangs shooting one another, and the occasional bystander, do. Here's 22 suspected counts of murder...by one biker. PANAMA CITY—Police in Panama say they have captured a fugitive with suspected ties to the Hells Angels motorcycle gang who is wanted in Canada for 22 murders.A police statement says Michel Smith was detained Friday in the Playa Coronado tourist region, 100 kilometres west of Panama City. The statement released Sunday said Smith was captured after a two-month surveillance operation, adding that he is wanted in Canada on 29 charges, including 22 counts of murder. http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1144661--panama-police-captures-suspected-hells-angel-wanted-for-22-murders-in-canada or...... The Quebec Biker war between the Hells Angels and the Rock Machine began in 1994 and continued until late 2002 and claimed more than 150 lives, including innocent bystanders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hells_Angels_MC_criminal_allegations_and_incidents That's in one province. But, nah.....these Canadian born fellows aren't nearly as bad as...the immigrants! Now, you mention drug-related crime too...you want to stack up the HA's drug activity against the Somalis? That would be fun, too. Enlightening, one might say. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Argus Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 Now, you mention drug-related crime too...you want to stack up the HA's drug activity against the Somalis? That would be fun, too. Enlightening, one might say. People are not afraid of Hells Angels breaking into their homes. People are not worried about Hells Angels attacking their kids in school. Hells Angels members don't swarm people in shopping centre parking lots, beat them, and steal their cell phones and ipods. I can tell you that given a choice, the people in Ottawa would much rather see all the Somalians gone then all the Hells Angels gone. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bleeding heart Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) People are not afraid of Hells Angels breaking into their homes. People are not worried about Hells Angels attacking their kids in school. Hells Angels members don't swarm people in shopping centre parking lots, beat them, and steal their cell phones and ipods. I can tell you that given a choice, the people in Ottawa would much rather see all the Somalians gone then all the Hells Angels gone. Whether or no, I was responding directly to the idea that the HA haven't committed the "dozens" of murders--since the mid-nineties--that the Somalians have, as stated by another poster. An assertion; now corrected. It begs the question: why would someone so strongly believe the literal and demonstrable opposite of the truth? Edited July 8, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Argus Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 Whether or no, I was responding directly to the idea that the HA haven't committed the "dozens" of murders--since the mid-nineties--that the Somalians have, as stated by another poster. An assertion; now corrected. It begs the question: why would someone so strongly believe the literal and demonstrable opposite of the truth? The media has little interest in such murders. The LAPD (unofficially) had a phrase which caused liberals to recoil when they found out they were using it. It was NVNNHI. Literally Nigger vs Niger, No Human Involvement. It was used by Black officers, too, btw. It denoted gang violence, or drug dealers killing drug dealers. As long as no 'civilians' were involved, nobody much cared. Including the media. And that's the way it is with the Hells Angels. They stay largely out of the limelight because their murders are not interesting to the media (the Quebec drug war between them and the mafia an exception). They aren't, as I said, in schools or shopping malls or mugging people or knocking over corner stores or fighting it out on city buses. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Canuckistani Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 I don't think it can be argued that immigration has increased crime overall. Immigrants, as a group, have lower crime rates, AFAIK. But, you do get pockets of problems, especially with gangs. The Vietnamese in Vancouver (who came in as refugees, yet) took violence to a whole new level. The Indo-Canadian community itself has anguished about why so many of its youth turned to gangs. The Chinese brought there very well developed Tong system with them. So that certainly hasn't bee a benefit. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 People are not afraid of Hells Angels breaking into their homes. People are not worried about Hells Angels attacking their kids in school. Hells Angels members don't swarm people in shopping centre parking lots, beat them, and steal their cell phones and ipods. I can tell you that given a choice, the people in Ottawa would much rather see all the Somalians gone then all the Hells Angels gone. Says more about "people" than anything. That you would gloss over the violence and drug dealing from the biker community, but condemn "Somalis" is crazy. Not all Somalis are criminals. In fact, probably a small fraction of them are. Everyone in the Hell's Angels is involved in a criminal organization though. Your stance on immigrants is clearly skewed by a sense of racial or cultural superiority and therefore completely irrational. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) The media has little interest in such murders. The LAPD (unofficially) had a phrase which caused liberals to recoil when they found out they were using it. It was NVNNHI. Literally Nigger vs Niger, No Human Involvement. It was used by Black officers, too, btw. It denoted gang violence, or drug dealers killing drug dealers. As long as no 'civilians' were involved, nobody much cared. Including the media. And that's the way it is with the Hells Angels. They stay largely out of the limelight because their murders are not interesting to the media (the Quebec drug war between them and the mafia an exception). They aren't, as I said, in schools or shopping malls or mugging people or knocking over corner stores or fighting it out on city buses. Your stance is so asinine it's painful to read. You care more about petty muggings and corner store stickups than the operations of a vast criminal empire involved in hundreds of murders and the largest drug traffic in the nation. Sorry, but you're being a god damned moron here. That doesn't mean we let those petty crimes go. They need to be held responsible. But to gloss over the Hell's Angels as "meh... who cares" at the same time is just stupid. Edited July 8, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
Argus Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 Says more about "people" than anything. That you would gloss over the violence and drug dealing from the biker community, but condemn "Somalis" is crazy. Not all Somalis are criminals. In fact, probably a small fraction of them are. Everyone in the Hell's Angels is involved in a criminal organization though. Your stance on immigrants is clearly skewed by a sense of racial or cultural superiority and therefore completely irrational. I'm not glossing over the Hells Angels. In fact, if it were up to me they'd all be in prison. Simply being a member of that organization would be enough to lock them up indefinitely. You, on the other hand, are glossing over the point of this segment of the topic, ie, immigrant crime. Somalis are involved in drug dealing, in murder, in armed robbery, in forced prostitution. There are less than 500 Hells Angels in Canada, so it doesn't damn well matter if only a minority of Somalis are involved in crime. Their numbers vastly outnumber the Hells Angels, and their crimes more directly affect ordinary people. When a liberal newspaper points out that more than half the juveniles in custody in Ottawa are Somalians, even though they only make up a small fraction of the population, that tells me crime is a deep problem in that particular immigrant community. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 8, 2012 Report Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) del Edited July 8, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) I'm not glossing over the Hells Angels. In fact, if it were up to me they'd all be in prison. Simply being a member of that organization would be enough to lock them up indefinitely. :lol: Lovely. A supporter of full on Macarthy era guilt by association Edited July 9, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Canuckistani Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 Would you consider somebody that's part of Al Qaeda to be guilty just by being a member? How is that different than the Hell's Angels? Do you believe that crap that they're just a motorcycle club and maybe a few members happen to do crimes? Same with the Red Scorpions, UN gang, Independent soldiers and all the HA associate clubs? Just a bunch of good ole boys who like to have a little fun? Quote
dre Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) Would you consider somebody that's part of Al Qaeda to be guilty just by being a member? How is that different than the Hell's Angels? Do you believe that crap that they're just a motorcycle club and maybe a few members happen to do crimes? Same with the Red Scorpions, UN gang, Independent soldiers and all the HA associate clubs? Just a bunch of good ole boys who like to have a little fun? I couldnt care less. You are either convicted of a crime in court based on evidence that shows you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or you arent. When the government starts locking people up based on who they associate with its time the members of that government to be locked up themselves or hunted down and dispatched. Edited July 9, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Guest Peeves Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 I couldnt care less. You are either convicted of a crime in court based on evidence that shows you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or you arent. When the government starts locking people up based on who they associate with its time the members of that government to be locked up themselves or hunted down and dispatched. If young Somalis continue killing one another should society be upset? I think so, unless they learn to shoot straight and stay out of public sites. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) I have no problem with immigration as long as we're taking in quality over quantity. Canada doesn't need any more elderly immigrants to put even more strain on our health care system which currently takes up half of the overall budget as it is. We need working age immigrants who have specialized skills and are highly educated in reasonable schools. We have enough cab drivers and other uneducated people doing the grunt work. We need people to help make Canada better not drag us down and hold us back 20 years. We should be focused on building an elite society not a mediocre one. Edited July 9, 2012 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Canuckistani Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 And the CPC is changing the focus to that, so good for them. But, it makes no sense to keep importing people with the skills we need, when we don't have a good system for training Canadians first. It just means that some Canadians are condemned to underemployment, which surely will cause resentment to all those immigrants who do get the good jobs. Also, does it makes sense to bleed off the cream from third world countries who have gone to the expense to educate them? Seems like a form of colonialism to me. Although from what I read, a lot of these top people are now going back home, because opportunities are better there. Probably after they've attained Canadians citizenship, so they can run back here if things don't work out back home. So they never develop a sense of attachment to either country. Meanwhile we keep taking in thousands of under educated, non English/French speaking people who don't do so well once they get here. It does keep wages down tho, and some people think that's a good thing. Quote
Argus Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 I couldnt care less. You are either convicted of a crime in court based on evidence that shows you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or you arent. The Hells Angels are a criminal organization. Simple solution. You write a law which says anyone belonging to a criminal organization goes to jail. There ya go. They'll get their court date and be gone. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 The Hells Angels are a criminal organization. Simple solution. You write a law which says anyone belonging to a criminal organization goes to jail. There ya go. They'll get their court date and be gone. freedom of association. Quote
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