Your Toronto Blue Jays

[overthere]

Goins had already played a game in the outfield this year, and played there 4 games last year. My point is that of the three, he is the only one with MLB experience in the OF. It won't matter though, if and when the time comes to send somebody to Buffalo.

At this point, he is also a fairly valuable piece of trade bait because he is young, good and cheap for a long time. So is Travis. Barney is the odd man out here- cheap at $1 Million but 30 years old and a free agent soon enough. That sways the 'who goes, who stays' equation to seeing Barney gone- but his bat this year.........

[Boges]

Goins went into right field last night after Bautista hurt his toe.

Saunders made an embarrassing play where he lost the ball in the light. But he's hitting really well right now.

Another broken double play overturned last night. That rule has to be modified. The second baseman can stand in front of the bag an get interfered with every time.

They beat up on a weak Philly team but can they beat the Orioles again after they handled Boston on the road. If they can I'd say this team is set to make a big run.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Boges

[Boges]

Dayum! Bautista gets put on the 15 day DL after hitting his toe on the scoreboard trying to make a play last night.

Guess he won't be leading off for a bit. I guess Carrera gets that gig now. If Goins play outfield then perhaps Travis or Barney can leadoff.

The decision on the four infielders gets kicked down the road a bit more.

[overthere]

And 'what to do about the pitching' has now spread from the bullpen to the starting rotation. Could we soon see Hutchison in Buffalo and Stroman in the 25 man roster swap places?

[Boges]

Would never have guessed Stroman would be the weak link in the lineup. 2 starts against Baltimore and a start against Boston. Did OK against Philly.

Maybe Stroman can go in the pen and not Sanchez.

[overthere]

That might be a good idea for when they bring Hutchison up to replace him in the rotation. It might force their hand with all the middle infielders though.... have to make a roster move unless they send Girodo (their sole lefty)down. More likely they'd just send Ceciliani back I guess.

One thing that Stroman does that enhances his worth in the bullpen: he throws strikes. Lots of strikes. To me, that is critical in a reliever. They come into games in tight situations, and nothing blows more than a guy that comes in with wild pitches, walks, hits batters etc. Grilli has done this lately. Drives me crazy that a major league pitcher cannot throw a strike at will.

ETA: speaking of sole lefties, how have Atkins and Shapiro gotten to this state of affairs?

Edited June 20, 2016 by overthere

[Guest]

Would never have guessed Stroman would be the weak link in the lineup. 2 starts against Baltimore and a start against Boston. Did OK against Philly.

Maybe Stroman can go in the pen and not Sanchez.

Yeah, Stroman has been a surprise. Sanchez has to go because of the pitch count and Stro needs just needs some time to come around. His ERA is 6+ against the AL East but 3ish versus everyone else. Thankfully, he will get 4-5 starts against non-AL East opponents to figure it out and work on his delivery.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Guest

[overthere]

The Jays bullpen has now gone from a bad joke to a league laughingstock.

Chavez and Storen both came into a game we were winning and choked. As usual.

I wonder how long Jays fans will continue to fill the building to watch this rubbish?

[Guest]

They have to get Stroman straightened out as well. I think he needs to do some time in Buffalo.

[Boges]

The Jays bullpen has now gone from a bad joke to a league laughingstock.

Chavez and Storen both came into a game we were winning and choked. As usual.

I wonder how long Jays fans will continue to fill the building to watch this rubbish?

Dunno, an above .500 team will be in contention until September at least. I guess living out West, you don't appreciate how popular the Jays are right now. Everyone is wearing Jays gear and with the influx of people moving walking distance from the stadium, it's easy for a faction of people to go to the game. They don't even need to be baseball fans, it's just the cool place to go.

They lost a tight game Friday, won a shootout on Saturday and Stroman got bested by Chris Sale on Sunday. Yesterday was unfortunate but you're acting like they're cacking up games all over the place. The big mistake was taking Estrada out because they had a runner on second and he was the next batter. The pinch hitter didn't produce and you have to put the bullpen in earlier than it may have been needed. That's National League baseball I guess.

I think only playing 8 home games in June is definitely a factor. They only play 4 road games in July.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

They have lost 6 out of their last 8, most of the losses were ugly.

The bullpen is simply awful. The 'help ' on the way is Cecil and Morales. Oh joy.

Is Atkins still involved with the Jays in some capacity?

I am enjoying watching Edwin play his way into a huge contract somewhere else. Maybe he'll give Shapiro a hearty handshake on the way out the door.

What does living in the West have to do with anything? The Jays history is: when they win, the crowds come. They won't be coming to this shitshow for much longer.

[Boges]

They have lost 6 out of their last 8, most of the losses were ugly.

The bullpen is simply awful. The 'help ' on the way is Cecil and Morales. Oh joy.

Is Atkins still involved with the Jays in some capacity?

I am enjoying watching Edwin play his way into a huge contract somewhere else. Maybe he'll give Shapiro a hearty handshake on the way out the door.

What does living in the West have to do with anything? The Jays history is: when they win, the crowds come. They won't be coming to this shitshow for much longer.

I actually looked up the attendance figures, they're top 10 now. Since the 2013 off season moves they've been top half of the league. It would take more than one losing season for fans to bail. Certainly not a rough end to June.

[Boges]

Rallied with 2 quick wins to end the road trip 3-3. Granted they also lost a series to Baltimore 2 weeks back.

I don't think it's homerism to say that a month with only 8 home games hurts a team.

They play almost all their games at home in July, granted against good teams. Cleveland and KC come to town.

[Guest]

The Dome certainly helps a team that relies on the long ball so much.

[Boges]

Shapiro haters may want to take notice at the team that's visiting the Jays this weekend.

The Shapiro/Atkins built Indians are 17 north of .500 this season. They're largely built on controlled young talent and not bloated veteran contracts that will be a problem for the Jays going forward.

Could the current state of the Indians be a sign of things to come for the Jays, especially considering the Jays will automatically have a higher payroll regardless.

[overthere]

Shapiro haters may want to take notice at the team that's visiting the Jays this weekend.

The Shapiro/Atkins built Indians are 17 north of .500 this season. They're largely built on controlled young talent and not bloated veteran contracts that will be a problem for the Jays going forward.

Could the current state of the Indians be a sign of things to come for the Jays, especially considering the Jays will automatically have a higher payroll regardless.

Using your logic, it is therefore unforgivable that Shapiro has so far utterly failed to leverage two massive assets into anything, including young talent. Encarnacion and Bautista will depart for nothing at all in return. If that happens- and it is getting more likely every day- how does your theory play out? By bloated vet contracts you are referring to EE and Bautista. In fact, both have affordable contracts and both had serious value before the season started. I reject your premise that the Jays are victims of old players in fat contracts, because it is wrong.

It is not like Shapiro inherited a team that was years from contending, as he did in Cleveland. He got a team with a couple of pieces missing, and a team that had assets that could be turned into the missing pieces. He has failed to do anything with them. The Jays are not going to win with this pitching, and the blame goes mainly and directly to Shapiro. He made deals to acquire veteran relievers to fill the holes evident from their expereince last year, and by and large those deals are big flops. The blame is on him. The failure to flip anybody like EE or Bats or any of the other assets into immediate help to build a championship team- which is certainly within the Jays reach- is on him.

Edited June 30, 2016 by overthere

[Boges]

Using your logic, it is therefore unforgivable that Shapiro has so far utterly failed to leverage two massive assets into anything, including young talent. Encarnacion and Bautista will depart for nothing at all in return. If that happens- and it is getting more likely every day- how does your theory play out? By bloated vet contracts you are referring to EE and Bautista. In fact, both have affordable contracts and both had serious value before the season started. I reject your premise that the Jays are victims of old players in fat contracts, because it is wrong.

It is not like Shapiro inherited a team that was years from contending, as he did in Cleveland. He got a team with a couple of pieces missing, and a team that had assets that could be turned into the missing pieces. He has failed to do anything with them. The Jays are not going to win with this pitching, and the blame goes mainly and directly to Shapiro. He made deals to acquire veteran relievers to fill the holes evident from their expereince last year, and by and large those deals are big flops. The blame is on him. The failure to flip anybody like EE or Bats or any of the other assets into immediate help to build a championship team- which is certainly within the Jays reach- is on him.

It's super convenient to assume that there's a favourable deal to be made for 2 rent-a-players in their mid-40's. I'm sure Shapiro would love to unload either of the those players for pitching. But who's biting? Not enough teams are buyers for rent-a-sluggers evidently.

The Yankees may be looking to unload Chapman, Miller and/or Betances because they clearly are not a contender this year. What would be an appropriate price for any of those players? Assuming they'd even trade inside the division.

As for contracts beyond EE and Bautista. Tulo and Martin are both $20 mil players. Donaldson is a $15 mil player and will likely make much more in 2 years. That's an NHL team's payroll invested in 3 players. This is AA's legacy.

I guess the GM/Prez has to own the fact that Storen and Cecil have been flops, but that wasn't the conventional wisdom going into the season. The conventional wisdom was that a Knuckle baller in his 40's, 2 older pitchers that got paid off a single season, or less, of elite production and a 21 year old pitcher who's never pitched a full season.

Sanchez, Happ and Estrada have all been fine. Dickey has been Dickey, not a huge drop off. It's Stroman (he may have been the one lock going into the season) that's been struggling.

[Boges]

What a weird weekend series. First game they get dominated by a starting pitcher, second game both teams can't get any offense going and they have to play two games. A solid game on Saturday from the Jays offensively but they give up some runs too. But today they put up 2 TDs and a Field Goal.

Not sure we learned anything from the Jays this weekend.

[overthere]

It's super convenient to assume that there's a favourable deal to be made for 2 rent-a-players in their mid-40's. I'm sure Shapiro would love to unload either of the those players for pitching. But who's biting? Not enough teams are buyers for rent-a-sluggers evidently.

The Yankees may be looking to unload Chapman, Miller and/or Betances because they clearly are not a contender this year. What would be an appropriate price for any of those players? Assuming they'd even trade inside the division.

As for contracts beyond EE and Bautista. Tulo and Martin are both $20 mil players. Donaldson is a $15 mil player and will likely make much more in 2 years. That's an NHL team's payroll invested in 3 players. This is AA's legacy.

I guess the GM/Prez has to own the fact that Storen and Cecil have been flops, but that wasn't the conventional wisdom going into the season. The conventional wisdom was that a Knuckle baller in his 40's, 2 older pitchers that got paid off a single season, or less, of elite production and a 21 year old pitcher who's never pitched a full season.

Sanchez, Happ and Estrada have all been fine. Dickey has been Dickey, not a huge drop off. It's Stroman (he may have been the one lock going into the season) that's been struggling.

They were not rental players until the Jays management made them that by failing to act. They were valuable assets . Past tense. That is unforgivable . Mid 40s? who are you talking about? I'm talking about EE and Bautista. Martin makes $16 million, not $20m.

The situation with EE and Joey is squarely on Shapiro and Atkins, and has been for at least 6 months..

They are 90 games in, and have done nothing. Unforgiveable, especially since they have assets to move- or rather did have them since the value of both EE and Bats diminsihes daily-- and are very close to being a championship team. They have failed so far.

[Boges]

They were not rental players until the Jays management made them that by failing to act. They were valuable assets . Past tense. That is unforgivable . Mid 40s? who are you talking about? I'm talking about EE and Bautista. Martin makes $16 million, not $20m.

The situation with EE and Joey is squarely on Shapiro and Atkins, and has been for at least 6 months..

They are 90 games in, and have done nothing. Unforgiveable, especially since they have assets to move- or rather did have them since the value of both EE and Bats diminsihes daily-- and are very close to being a championship team. They have failed so far.

And you know what's being offered for them right? Even if they traded them before the season, that team would know they will hit free agency unless they sign and trade. You have no idea what anyone was willing to trade EE or Bautista for. Especially after Bautista did that pony show at the start of Spring Training where he said his demands are set in stone, I'm sure that scared all the teams off. And rightly so, he's been far less impressive this season than he has in past seasons. I'm sure that was predictable and teams wouldn't want to part with high-end pitching for him.

I meant mid-30's, typo. Regardless. Trading them is only an option if they're out of contention. They aren't even close to that yet.

Russel Martin's contract is back-loaded, he'll make $20 mil the last three years of his deal.

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2014/11/18/7240909/blue-jays-backload-russell-martins-contract

Tulo makes 20 and Donaldson makes 15. Trading Tulo might have been an option but he's coming on now.

[Boges]

Aaron Sanchez is soooooooo good right now.

There's no way you can send a pitcher, that's able to go 8 innings against the WS champs like that, and put him in the bullpen.

Estrada is having back trouble right now so we may see Hutch spot start for him in the future. All the more reason that Sanchez needs to stay in the rotation.

[Guest]

Aaron Sanchez is soooooooo good right now.

There's no way you can send a pitcher, that's able to go 8 innings against the WS champs like that, and put him in the bullpen.

Estrada is having back trouble right now so we may see Hutch spot start for him in the future. All the more reason that Sanchez needs to stay in the rotation.

Why are they managing his workload anyway? Is it just because he is a rookie and they want to ease him in or did he have arm trouble in the past?

[Boges]

Why are they managing his workload anyway? Is it just because he is a rookie and they want to ease him in or did he have arm trouble in the past?

He's never been a starter for a full season before. In 2014 he got put in the bullpen half way through the season. Started in the rotation in 2014, got injured and then go thrown into the bullpen after David Price was traded for.

He's on pace to more than double his workload if he plays this full season plus a potential post season run. But he's arguably their best pitcher, if not second best behind Estrada.

The Jays are really blessed with 3 starters that will keep them in just about every game they pitch in. And that ignores the guy that was supposed to be the teams Ace in Spring Training.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Boges

[overthere]

And you know what's being offered for them right? Even if they traded them before the season, that team would know they will hit free agency unless they sign and trade. You have no idea what anyone was willing to trade EE or Bautista for. Especially after Bautista did that pony show at the start of Spring Training where he said his demands are set in stone, I'm sure that scared all the teams off. And rightly so, he's been far less impressive this season than he has in past seasons. I'm sure that was predictable and teams wouldn't want to part with high-end pitching for him.

I meant mid-30's, typo. Regardless. Trading them is only an option if they're out of contention. They aren't even close to that yet.

Russel Martin's contract is back-loaded, he'll make $20 mil the last three years of his deal.

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2014/11/18/7240909/blue-jays-backload-russell-martins-contract

Tulo makes 20 and Donaldson makes 15. Trading Tulo might have been an option but he's coming on now.

Are you going to continue to pretend that the value of EE and Bautista does not drop continually, and that their greatest value was before the season started?

I agree that trading them becomes less likely as the season continues. Shame on Shapiro and Atkins for that.

ETA: what should have happened was that Shapiro should have traded one of them and signed the other. That is how you maximize assets. Instead, he will get nothing at all in return. Zero.

The Jays are starting to look a lot like the Vancouver Canucks, wasting the prime years of a solid core group.

Edited July 5, 2016 by overthere

[Boges]

Are you going to continue to pretend that the value of EE and Bautista does not drop continually, and that their greatest value was before the season started?

Again assuming they were offered something worth the value those players have on the current team. We don't know. Regardless Shapiro and Atkins effects on this team won't be truly known until after this season when/if they do lose one or both of them and how they reload or rebuild considering how bare AA left the cupboard after last season.

Perhaps trading for prospects may have been smart, but that would have hampered the team's chances to win this year. Which is still a distinct possibility.

I am optimistic how players like Barney and Carerra have filled in, making this team's bench quite capable. Collabello is set to come back soon, perhaps he'll be more productive without the shadow of a huge suspension being cast over him. Though he can't play in the playoffs, should the Jays make it this season.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Boges