united states' biggest welfare recipient to receive more welfare

[DogOnPorch]

Well, bud...if your Arab friends hadn't said no to their slice of the Ottoman pie (paid with by Commonwealth blood) there'd be an Arab Palestine this very day. But, violence was the Arab's answer as it was numerous times post 1947.

[Signals.Cpl]

i'd like to know who here is okay with canada's treatment of the natives.

bringing up the past actions of a country i live in, whether the actions are similar or not, to somehow excuse and justify the brutal actions of israel against a people is lame. you have a ridiculous habit. you're a bizarre old man.

apartheid south africa was supported by many western countries. but that slowly changed as pressure from people mounted and the reality of the oppressive actions by the south african government became too much to ignore. israel is heading towards the same fate.

no one believes palestinian land and water theft is a defensive action. americans, and young american jews specifically are starting to distance themselves from israel and u.s.' support for israel oppressive behaviour.

AIPAC may have the u.s. government by the balls right now, but that will soon change. see apartheid south africa.

sshhhhhh... don't tell a soul.

You seem to be bent on blaming Israel for the Arabs lack of common sense and lack of desire for peace. They have on multiple occasions attacked Israel while backed by weapons from the USSR and yet you seem to find no problem with that, but you have a problem with the US providing weapons to Israel to prevent its destruction. Seems to me you are to dense to learn from history, but luckily the US government is not. Many of the Arabs are bent on Israel's destruction, and that is not going to happen at least not without the rest of the middle east going up in smoke. Stop being such a fascist anti-semite and look at the real problem.

[DogOnPorch]

To bud, Yom Kippur is a type of tasty fish.

[bud]

You seem to be bent on blaming Israel for the Arabs lack of common sense and lack of desire for peace. They have on multiple occasions attacked Israel while backed by weapons from the USSR and yet you seem to find no problem with that, but you have a problem with the US providing weapons to Israel to prevent its destruction. Seems to me you are to dense to learn from history, but luckily the US government is not. Many of the Arabs are bent on Israel's destruction, and that is not going to happen at least not without the rest of the middle east going up in smoke. Stop being such a fascist anti-semite and look at the real problem.

not sure where to start with your narrative.

first of all, how israel came to be should be acknowledged.

1. are you aware that palestine's Jewish population was under 8% of the total population as of 1914?
   
2. are you aware that in 1914 jewish land ownership in palestine was under 2%?
   
3. despite the active British assistance to establish a "jewish national home" in palestine (based on the british commitment in the balfour declaration), palestine's jewish population in 1947 was increased to 33% of its total population.
   
4. are you aware, in order to create a 'jewish identity', israel ethnically cleansed 80% of the palestinian population out of their homes, farms and business?
   
5. are you aware that jewish land ownership in palestine was under 7% as of 1947?
   
6. are you aware that the u.s. arm twisted the arms of dozens of small nations to get their support for the partitioning of palestine? for example, greece and france were threatened with a foreign aid cutoff.
   
7. are you aware it wasn't just the arabs who rejected the partition plan, but also the world zionist congress who rejected the partition plan as well? do you know the reason? the reason was that they wanted all of palestine for themselves. that's why they have never accepted a permanent border.
   
8. did you know that before the un partition plan in 1947, there was a peel commission plan in 1937 which was rejected by the zionist congress. how many jews would have been saved from the holocaust? why is it okay to reject the peel commission in 1937 but not okay to reject the un partition plan in 1947?
   

are you aware of this quote in 1938, by ben-gurion who made it clear of his support for the "jewish state" on part of palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. he wrote:

"[i am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

this is just the tip of the issue, which we all need to acknowledge before going into the rest of the modern-history of the region.

there are hundreds of documented evidence and information which tell you what happened. some of the best books written by the israeli historian, benny morris, a self-proclaimed zionist.

simplistic, superficial comments such as, THE ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL AND ISRAEL NEEDS TO DEFEND ITSELF were not true then and they're certainly not true now.

[Signals.Cpl]

not sure where to start with your narrative.

first of all, how israel came to be should be acknowledged.

1. are you aware that palestine's Jewish population was under 8% of the total population as of 1914?
   
2. are you aware that in 1914 jewish land ownership in palestine was under 2%?
   
3. despite the active British assistance to establish a "jewish national home" in palestine (based on the british commitment in the balfour declaration), palestine's jewish population in 1947 was increased to 33% of its total population.
   
4. are you aware, in order to create a 'jewish identity', israel ethnically cleansed 80% of the palestinian population out of their homes, farms and business?
   
5. are you aware that jewish land ownership in palestine was under 7% as of 1947?
   
6. are you aware that the u.s. arm twisted the arms of dozens of small nations to get their support for the partitioning of palestine? for example, greece and france were threatened with a foreign aid cutoff.
   
7. are you aware it wasn't just the arabs who rejected the partition plan, but also the world zionist congress who rejected the partition plan as well? do you know the reason? the reason was that they wanted all of palestine for themselves. that's why they have never accepted a permanent border.
   
8. did you know that before the un partition plan in 1947, there was a peel commission plan in 1937 which was rejected by the zionist congress. how many jews would have been saved from the holocaust? why is it okay to reject the peel commission in 1937 but not okay to reject the un partition plan in 1947?
   

are you aware of this quote in 1938, by ben-gurion who made it clear of his support for the "jewish state" on part of palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. he wrote:

"[i am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

this is just the tip of the issue, which we all need to acknowledge before going into the rest of the modern-history of the region.

there are hundreds of documented evidence and information which tell you what happened. some of the best books written by the israeli historian, benny morris, a self-proclaimed zionist.

simplistic, superficial comments such as, THE ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL AND ISRAEL NEEDS TO DEFEND ITSELF were not true then and they're certainly not true now.

Are you aware you provided no sources?

[DogOnPorch]

Are you aware you provided no sources?

...and he did it without mentioning the Grand Mufti even once. Well done, I say...lol.

[Signals.Cpl]

not sure where to start with your narrative.

first of all, how israel came to be should be acknowledged.

1. 
   

are you aware that palestine's Jewish population was under 8% of the total population as of 1914?

Who owned that territory?

are you aware that in 1914 jewish land ownership in palestine was under 2%?

Who owned that territory?

despite the active British assistance to establish a "jewish national home" in palestine (based on the british commitment in the balfour declaration), palestine's jewish population in 1947 was increased to 33% of its total population.

Point being?

are you aware, in order to create a 'jewish identity', israel ethnically cleansed 80% of the palestinian population out of their homes, farms and business?

Is that before or after the Arabs attacked Israel?

are you aware that jewish land ownership in palestine was under 7% as of 1947?

Are you aware that 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

are you aware that the u.s. arm twisted the arms of dozens of small nations to get their support for the partitioning of palestine? for example, greece and france were threatened with a foreign aid cutoff.

Are you aware that Palestine was larger but due to the Arabs trying to occupy Israel Palestine lost most of their land?

are you aware it wasn't just the arabs who rejected the partition plan, but also the world zionist congress who rejected the partition plan as well? do you know the reason? the reason was that they wanted all of palestine for themselves. that's why they have never accepted a permanent border.

Once again arabs attacked Israel and were to incompetent to win so Palestine lost...Blame the Arabs for stupidity.

did you know that before the un partition plan in 1947, there was a peel commission plan in 1937 which was rejected by the zionist congress. how many jews would have been saved from the holocaust? why is it okay to reject the peel commission in 1937 but not okay to reject the un partition plan in 1947?

Great having 20/20 vision isn't it?

are you aware of this quote in 1938, by ben-gurion who made it clear of his support for the "jewish state" on part of palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. he wrote:

"[i am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403)

this is just the tip of the issue, which we all need to acknowledge before going into the rest of the modern-history of the region.

there are hundreds of documented evidence and information which tell you what happened. some of the best books written by the israeli historian, benny morris, a self-proclaimed zionist.

See, blame the Jews has been around for thousands of years and it comes down to feeble minds cannot find the problem therefore they blame Israel.

simplistic, superficial comments such as, THE ARABS ATTACKED ISRAEL AND ISRAEL NEEDS TO DEFEND ITSELF were not true then and they're certainly not true now.

And giving me statistics from the ottoman empire is irrelevant. And I would like to add to that, every country AND individual has a right to exist, if you don't believe in that, thats YOUR problem fortunately most people are not racist like you.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Signals.Cpl

[bud]

Are you aware you provided no sources?

righteous victims, benny morris.

did a quick search but couldn't find the scanned book online. but you're welcome to borrow mine any time you'd like.

[Signals.Cpl]

righteous victims, benny morris.

did a quick search but couldn't find the scanned book online. but you're welcome to borrow mine any time you'd like.

One question, what does property ownership under the ottoman empire have to do with anything?

[bud]

One question, what does property ownership under the ottoman empire have to do with anything?

what does ownership of property have anything to do with owning property? what are you trying to get at here?

do we pretend that the land was not owned by the people that it was taken from?

[Signals.Cpl]

what does ownership of property have anything to do with owning property? what are you trying to get at here?

do we pretend that the land was not owned by the people that it was taken from?

The Ottomans?

[Signals.Cpl]

what does ownership of property have anything to do with owning property? what are you trying to get at here?

do we pretend that the land was not owned by the people that it was taken from?

By 1880, about 24,000 Jews were living in Palestine, out of a population of about 400,000. At about that time, the Ottoman government imposed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase, and also began actively soliciting inviting Muslims from other parts of the Ottoman empire to settle in Palestine, including Circassians and Bosnians. The restrictions were evaded in various ways by Jews seeking to colonize Palestine, chiefly by bribery.

http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/co/palestine.htm

[Moonlight Graham]

Are you aware you provided no sources?

I don't know about the exact statistics really (yes sources would help), but everything else he put in that list that I'm aware of (maybe 1/3 of it) is correct. ie: Zionist leadership did reject the Peel Plan in 1937 because they indeed wanted all of the British Mandate Palestine (or at least the vast majority of it) to themselves (though the exact same story for the Palestinians/Arabs).

[Signals.Cpl]

I don't know about the exact statistics really (yes sources would help), but everything else he put in that list that I'm aware of (maybe 1/3 of it) is correct. ie: Zionist leadership did reject the Peel Plan in 1937 because they indeed wanted all of the British Mandate Palestine (or at least the vast majority of it) to themselves (though the exact same story for the Palestinians/Arabs).

And for the previous few decades Jews were severely restricted from purchasing land immigrating to the are while the Ottoman Empire was flooding the area with arabs.Kind of defeats the whole argument about the bad jews. If they were prevented from immigrating while the Arabs were encouraged the whole issue of who owns the land and how long they lived there could be questioned.

Jews accepted the deal that they rejected in 1937 because at that time they were coming out of the Concentration camps seeing that europe was destroyed, their property was stolen by the Nazi's and realized that they could not return to live with the people who had betrayed and murdered so many of their friends and had put them through hell.

[bush_cheney2004]

bringing up the past actions of a country i live in, whether the actions are similar or not, to somehow excuse and justify the brutal actions of israel against a people is lame. you have a ridiculous habit. you're a bizarre old man.

So you don't like an "old man" rubbing your nose in it, eh? You will need more than your brand of smug anti-Israeli righteousness to hide that homemade stink.

apartheid south africa was supported by many western countries. but that slowly changed as pressure from people mounted and the reality of the oppressive actions by the south african government became too much to ignore. israel is heading towards the same fate.

No, Israel has more international legitimacy than Canada or the United States.

no one believes palestinian land and water theft is a defensive action. americans, and young american jews specifically are starting to distance themselves from israel and u.s.' support for israel oppressive behaviour.

Your best hope rests with young "american jews"? How pathetic....

AIPAC may have the u.s. government by the balls right now, but that will soon change. see apartheid south africa.

AIPAC is an AMERICAN LOBBY....someday you will figure this out, but even if you don't, keep barking at the Moon over ...

British Columbia

Edited May 15, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Moonlight Graham]

Jews accepted the deal that they rejected in 1937 because at that time they were coming out of the Concentration camps seeing that europe was destroyed...

It wasn't the same deal. The Jews got a lot more land out of the 1947 UN plan.

[bush_cheney2004]

...do we pretend that the land was not owned by the people that it was taken from?

Nobody owns land, but they do have the right to defend possession. See "Israel".

[Signals.Cpl]

It wasn't the same deal. The Jews got a lot more land out of the 1947 UN plan.

Yeah and when the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 Israel got even more land.

[bud]

The Ottomans?

what? the ottomans? i do recommend that you read about the history of the region before engaging in a debate about it.

these people have land titles. many of the titles are still in possession of the original owners and their descendants.

Edited May 15, 2012 by bud

[bush_cheney2004]

these people have land titles. many of the titles are still in possession of the original owners and their descendants.

Shucks...I guess BC natives didn't have land titles recognized by the Crown...that explains everything! Remember folks...always show any invading forces your official torrens land title...that will stop them cold.

[Signals.Cpl]

what? the ottomans? i do recommend that you read about the history of the region before engaging in a debate about it.

these people have land titles. many of the titles are still in possession of the original owners and their descendants.

You know the empire that occupied the area in 1914. You might want to brush up on history and geography before you criticize people. If you don't know what you are talking about say so we already know we just want you to admit. You used statistics from 1914 when the entire region was under Ottoman rule so I am sorry but you just lost the minuscule value that you brought to this argument.

[bud]

You know the empire that occupied the area in 1914. You might want to brush up on history and geography before you criticize people. If you don't know what you are talking about say so we already know we just want you to admit. You used statistics from 1914 when the entire region was under Ottoman rule so I am sorry but you just lost the minuscule value that you brought to this argument.

under the ottomans, people still owned land and had titles. this is land that the zionist congress wanted to purchase.

Edited May 15, 2012 by bud

[Signals.Cpl]

under the ottomans, people still owned land and had titles. this is land that the zionist congress wanted to purchase.

Under the Ottoman Empire, jews were under severe restrictions when it came to immigration or purchasing land while at the same time the Ottoman Empire's government flooded the area with Arabs from all four corners of the empire in order to outnumber the jewish settlers. After the Ottoman Empire lost World War One the British Empire took over the region while the french took over Syria. The British made the offer in 1937 less then 20 years after they captured the territory from the ottomans. Once the Ottomans were pushed out and the Ottoman Empire collapsed to form the Turkish Republic the British occupied the area lifting many if not all of the restrictions faced by the Jews in the area of immigration and land ownership. The Arabs had in most cases been there for a short time 30-60 years and they outnumbered the Jews because of the restrictions the Ottomans placed. The case could be made that the Israeli people were in the area much earlier then the Arabs and the only reason they were so few in number was due to the frequent occupation and reoccupation of the area by multiple empires and the constant persecution of the Jews by pretty much every body and their mother.

You are stating that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs, while I challenge that because the Jews were on the land well before the arabs and were forcibly removed in many cases.Being kicked out of their land 500-800 years prior does not negate their ownership as a people, and favourable policies by the occupying regime towards the arabs does not grant them ownership either. This was mishandled by both sides and the major powers after world war 1 and world war 2 but by no means are the Israelis 100% guilty or even 50% guilty. At this point they are fighting for their national survival and I have nothing but respect and support for them.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Signals.Cpl

[bud]

Under the Ottoman Empire, jews were under severe restrictions when it came to immigration or purchasing land while at the same time the Ottoman Empire's government flooded the area with Arabs from all four corners of the empire in order to outnumber the jewish settlers.

i thought you were about links.

After the Ottoman Empire lost World War One the British Empire took over the region while the french took over Syria. The British made the offer in 1937 less then 20 years after they captured the territory from the ottomans. Once the Ottomans were pushed out and the Ottoman Empire collapsed to form the Turkish Republic the British occupied the area lifting many if not all of the restrictions faced by the Jews in the area of immigration and land ownership. The Arabs had in most cases been there for a short time 30-60 years

really? 30-60 years? link?

and they outnumbered the Jews because of the restrictions the Ottomans placed. The case could be made that the Israeli people were in the area much earlier then the Arabs and the only reason they were so few in number was due to the frequent occupation and reoccupation of the area by multiple empires and the constant persecution of the Jews by pretty much every body and their mother.

link?

You are stating that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs,

i am stating facts. there are countless documented evidence which show that the zionists took part in a systematic form of ethnic cleansing to make way for greater israel. this is still happening today by way of forced land annexation, home demolitions and illegal government sponsored settlements.

while I challenge that because the Jews were on the land well before the arabs and were forcibly removed in many cases.Being kicked out of their land 500-800 years prior does not negate their ownership as a people, and favourable policies by the occupying regime towards the arabs does not grant them ownership either.

your suspicious use of years, without citing is not going to pass. you also cannot claim that a russian jew who was living in russia and was told to migrate to palestine has more claim to a land that he or his parents or grandparents never set foot in, than an arab and his parents and grandparents who had already been living there for centuries.

your biblical claim to land is not going to fly in the face of reality.

At this point they are fighting for their national survival and I have nothing but respect and support for them.

the sad truth is that according to the perverted israeli laws and to your acceptance, if i converted to judaism, i would have more claim to land annexed (see stolen) by israel in the west bank than a palestinian arab who has been living there for centuries.

Edited May 15, 2012 by bud

[Guest Peeves]

I would disagree with that statement.

-1948 Arab–Israeli War vs 12 nations

-Six-Day War 1967 vs 12 nations

-War of Attrition 1967-1970 vs 6 nations

-Yom Kippur War 1973 vs 16 nations

-1982 Lebanon War vs 4 nations

-2006 Lebanon War vs 2 nations

They sure look dependant.

Und

Were one to add up all the funding the USA gives to the Islamic (non democratic nations that in general show they hate the USA) + the cost of the Iraq- (2) invasions, the Afghan war and North Korea bribes and other countries in general, It's nice to see the USA supports a democratic friend that is a line of defense in a sea of Islamic tyranny.

As for Bud's claim that Israel has never stood on it's own, that's pretty much what an anti-Semite might claim. Pretty much a lie when one looks at Israel's history, though I doubt he would apologise even though you prove him wrong.

Israel does what Israel needs to do for survival. Sometimes in the extreme and in hind site could have done something different.

By Cal Thomas

Unemployment in America is hovering at just below 10 percent, so President Obama hosted a “Summit on Entrepreneurship” in Washington, D.C., in an effort to boost economic development … in Muslim nations.

The president thinks more U.S. investment in Muslim lands and exchange programs that will bring Muslim women to America so they can work as interns will enhance U.S. prosperity and, thus, change Muslim attitudes about the United States.

Pigs will fly first.

The U.S. has been more than generous to Arab and Muslim nations in direct foreign aid, military assistance and other ways. Egypt receives about $2 billion of American taxpayer dollars every year, yet it still votes against American interests at the U.N. 79 percent of the time. Jordan, a “moderate” Muslim nation, receives nearly $200 million annually in U.S. foreign aid, but votes against America at the U.N. 71 percent of the time. Pakistan votes 75 percent of the time against the U.S. at the U.N. while pocketing nearly $7 million annually in foreign aid (in addition to the money it gets to supposedly fight al-Qaida).

An even better example of the disconnect between American assistance and changed Muslim attitudes toward the U.S. is the Palestinian Authority. As former Israeli diplomat Yoram Ettinger writes for ynetnews.com, just since 2007, “U.S. foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority and to PA-controlled (nongovernmental organizations) reached nearly $2 billion, in addition to $3.7 billion contributed by the U.S. to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East since 1950.”