Conservative Finlay Low Wage Immigrant Workers.

[Guest Derek L]

Low paying work of which there isn't enough for the existing population, resulting in the relatively high unemployment rates. You don't bring in more people when there aren't enough jobs for the ones that are already there.

My point exactly....But couldn’t the same be said of more skilled labour? And not only can the argument be made that bringing in foreign workers will effect unemployment and wages, but wouldn’t said worker and any family members also become a drain on our social services?

[Bonam]

My point exactly....But couldn’t the same be said of more skilled labour?

It certainly could.

And not only can the argument be made that bringing in foreign workers will effect unemployment and wages, but wouldn’t said worker and any family members also become a drain on our social services?

They would yeah, if they are working a low paying job that pays less taxes than the services they use. Or if they are a permanent immigrant and lose their job.

Anyway, like I said, we should only be bringing in foreign workers (either temporary or permanent) when the economy is on fire and there literally aren't enough qualified Canadians to fill the jobs.

[Guest Derek L]

It certainly could.

They would yeah, if they are working a low paying job that pays less taxes than the services they use. Or if they are a permanent immigrant and lose their job.

Anyway, like I said, we should only be bringing in foreign workers (either temporary or permanent) when the economy is on fire and there literally aren't enough qualified Canadians to fill the jobs.

Well I guess we’re in agreement………Stop immigration into Canada until the economy picks up.

[bush_cheney2004]

People that want to get a visa to work in the US, whether temporary or permanent, generally go through the H1 visa process. To get an H1 visa, your prospective employer has to get a department of labor certification, to do this they have to prove that they have advertised the job, offered the prevailing wage, and that absolutely NO minimally qualified Americans applied

Not always the case, as Uncle Sam turned on the H1-B visa spigot for several years and only recently has the door been slammed shut. We saw tens of thousands of such workers in the IT industry.

(even if the prospective immigrant is more qualified, it only matters if a minimally qualified American applied). This process inherently protects American jobs. (There are some exceptions, generally for exceptionally highly qualified people, who exist in such small numbers so as not to make a major impact on the job market anyway. )

This process is not as restrictive as you may believe, depending on economic conditions. There are also ways to subvert the process with offshore contractor firms (e.g. Infosys, Accenture, CapGemini).

Now, after an immigrant gets their H1, they can potentially eventually get a green card. Once they have a green card, they can accept any job at any wage, being a permanent resident. But not until then. This is a powerful barrier to employers bringing in cheap foreign workers if there are Americans willing to do the jobs at the prevailing wage.

But that is key, as most American citizens are not willing to perform the job at such prevailing wages. They have access to government programs and services that create an economic floor (safety net) not enjoyed by landed immigrants in the same way. In Canada, I suspect that EI pogy has the same effect.

Edited April 30, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

It's not that hard.... If they are temporary, drive down wages and take their earnings back to their home country, they are not a net benefit, other than to the multinational company that is allowed to do this.

Add that they now cost 15% less than domestic labour and there's no reason to hire Canadians.

[cybercoma]

Well I guess we’re in agreement………Stop immigration into Canada until the economy picks up.

Immigration levels do change with the economy.

[Argus]

And what is the distinguishing point at which a migrant worker becomes a negative and an immigrant worker a positive in terms of unemployment & wages?

As has been pointed out earlier, migrant workers live in the cheapest accommodation that can be found, and horde their money to send home. In other words, they are not purchasing houses or cars or other goods here. Very little of their wages wind up recirculating in the Canadian economy. Instead it drains out.

As to immigrants, they also depress wages, but, depending on the quality of the immigrant (ie, the skill/employability level) this can be counter balanced to a grater or lessor degree, with the creation of more jobs (they need cars and houses and toasters), as well as their contribution to the tax base.

[Argus]

Don’t get me wrong, my wife and father were born in different countries (as was my mother’s parents) and I myself have been a “migrant worker”, but as it stands, I’ve nothing against immigrants from any nation/race/religion etc, but if those opposed to migrant workers don’t see the correlation between immigrants in general, I fail to see their opposition to the Government’s position.

Perhaps, we should consider closing our doors for a decade or so……..What would the net effect be? Would those with expensive University Educations and born here and unable to find work be willing to pick the berries, serve the coffee and clean other’s toilets? I don’t know?

Well, business would be required to actually train up people, which is something they've been avoiding much of the last couple of decades. They would be putting pressure on government to implement proper skills training programs for people here, esp the unemployed. I imagine the compensation offered to those doing low skill jobs would have to rise somewhat. And don't act like all Canadians have their noses in the air. I cleaned toilets, served coffee - and beer, and was a security guard.

[Argus]

Migrant temporary workers are NOT the same as immigrants.

Immigrants are job creators, not job takers. Nor do they drive down wages like this Conservative gov't policy will do.

They are both job takers and job creaters. And yes, they do drive down wages. That's elementary. The law of supply and demand.

[Argus]

It's not that hard.... If they are temporary, drive down wages and take their earnings back to their home country, they are not a net benefit, other than to the multinational company that is allowed to do this.

There's precious little evidence the majority of immigrants are a 'net benefit' either.

[Argus]

That’s all well and good, but are University educated Canadians going to pick produce or drive taxis?

You think all Canadians have a university degree?

[Argus]

And they are competing with migrant workers and immigrants for low paying work no?

Back when I was a security guard, the company locked our our union, the steelworkers, and brought in a bunch of scabs, almost all of whom were refugees/immigrants. A big chunk of that industry was made up of immigrants, and so yes, wages were depressed because of them.

[Michael Hardner]

And not only can the argument be made that bringing in foreign workers will effect unemployment and wages,

Are people really thinking that the Conservative government is concerned about wages ? To a company, these are known as "costs". We have been offshoring jobs for 20 years now, so this is just a continuation of that trend.

[Michael Hardner]

This process is not as restrictive as you may believe, depending on economic conditions. There are also

Absolutely. The first Chinese citizen I ever met introduced herself when she took the cubicle next to mine as a co-worker, working for H. Ross Perot's company EDS.

[Machjo]

Canadians don't go to Mexico to work for less pay than Mexicans do!! Big difference.

We have high unemployment but we want to pay less to foreign workers and bring more of them here? Makes no sense whatsoever.

I'd already clarified earlier that I agreed we should not have a two-tiered system. i was referring to beoing beyond that and preventing them from working here at all.

[Tilter]

I agree with you. Let Canadians prosper from our own wealth.

The problem with your complaint is that there are many people on the unemployed list who won't take the jobs we are discussing here. They are beneath them and demeaning so they stay on pogy until they are kicked off & then they go back to work. Don't tell my it`s is not true--- we see many examples every day.

[cybercoma]

The problem with your complaint is that there are many people on the unemployed list who won't take the jobs we are discussing here.

How many?

[Guest Derek L]

Immigration levels do change with the economy.

Yes, but should they be suspended for the “sake of the Canadian middle class”?

[Guest Derek L]

As has been pointed out earlier, migrant workers live in the cheapest accommodation that can be found, and horde their money to send home. In other words, they are not purchasing houses or cars or other goods here. Very little of their wages wind up recirculating in the Canadian economy. Instead it drains out.

As to immigrants, they also depress wages, but, depending on the quality of the immigrant (ie, the skill/employability level) this can be counter balanced to a grater or lessor degree, with the creation of more jobs (they need cars and houses and toasters), as well as their contribution to the tax base.

So an immigrant picking berries or working at Tim Horton’s is buying houses and cars?

[Guest Derek L]

Well, business would be required to actually train up people, which is something they've been avoiding much of the last couple of decades. They would be putting pressure on government to implement proper skills training programs for people here, esp the unemployed. I imagine the compensation offered to those doing low skill jobs would have to rise somewhat. And don't act like all Canadians have their noses in the air. I cleaned toilets, served coffee - and beer, and was a security guard.

Why is it the onus of the Government to train people up for their careers ? If society is short of berry pickers, dishwashers, mechanics and doctors and Canadian students are focusing on fields associated with “graphic design”, “women’s studies”, history and environmental sciences, and not finding work in said fields (again pun intended)……….

[Michael Hardner]

As has been pointed out earlier, migrant workers live in the cheapest accommodation that can be found, and horde their money to send home. In other words, they are not purchasing houses or cars or other goods here. Very little of their wages wind up recirculating in the Canadian economy. Instead it drains out.

As to immigrants, they also depress wages, but, depending on the quality of the immigrant (ie, the skill/employability level) this can be counter balanced to a grater or lessor degree, with the creation of more jobs (they need cars and houses and toasters), as well as their contribution to the tax base.

This doesn't seem to matter, though. They have always engaged migrant workers in the past under the same conditions. From the reaction here, the political backlash is the big reason why this wouldn't go forward.

[Guest Derek L]

You think all Canadians have a university degree?

Nope, and very likely for many youngsters that do, they’ll never find employment in their field of study.

[Guest Derek L]

Back when I was a security guard, the company locked our our union, the steelworkers, and brought in a bunch of scabs, almost all of whom were refugees/immigrants. A big chunk of that industry was made up of immigrants, and so yes, wages were depressed because of them.

So if immigrants depress wages, shouldn’t we stop or drastically slow them amount of immigrants we allow into the country?

[Guest Derek L]

Are people really thinking that the Conservative government is concerned about wages ? To a company, these are known as "costs". We have been offshoring jobs for 20 years now, so this is just a continuation of that trend.

I don’t know what people think……….Some seem opposed to cheap migrant workers, but open to immigration………I personally feel the NDP and Liberals during the next election should run on reducing immigrants “taking our jobs”……..Seems like a brilliant strategy to me.

[dre]

I’m confuzzled, so now immigration is a bad thing? Couldn’t it be said, if we stopped all immigration for a generation and/or ten years we’d decrease unemployment and see wages increase?

No the exact opposite would be true. Our standard of life is driven by growth... When the population is growing we build houses, roads, new residential neighborhoods, and businesses are started or expanded to supply what new citizens consume. If we stopped immigration we would see contraction in both our population and our economy. Thats not to say that all immigrants are good... we should try to let in the best ones we can, and we generally do.

But your standard of life would decline dramatically without immigration, and there would be less employment as well.

It IS possible to have a stable country without growth, but not based on our current economic framework.