Grow the Eff up Quebec!

[GostHacked]

The police in Quebec should be ashamed of themselves for failing to protect the legitimate protesters from radical anarchist groups piggy-backing onto these demonstrations. The cops are obligated to ensure that violence and destruction do not ensue, while upholding the peaceful protesters' right to voice their concerns. Some of the student groups have already spoken out about the violence, the others for some stupid reason have taken direct democracy to the Nth degree, saying they need to vote on it. No, idiots. You don't have to vote on it. You need to condemn all violence. The police too need to be condemned for not handling the violent anarchists, instead of using that violence as a pretext to trample rights that we should all respect.

I have a feeling in time we will see this as Agent Provocateur action.

[Boges]

Bullshit. Not that I necessarily agree that post-secondary education should be free.

Some here clearly do.

[jacee]

The police in Quebec should be ashamed of themselves for failing to protect the legitimate protesters from radical anarchist groups piggy-backing onto these demonstrations. The cops are obligated to ensure that violence and destruction do not ensue, while upholding the peaceful protesters' right to voice their concerns.

I agree that it is the duty of police to protect the students' right to protes.

I agree that the police should deal with vandalism as the laws allow.

I don't agree that it should all be blamed on "violent anarchists" because ...

... Property damage is a loooong way from violence against people, as 'violence' is normally interpreted, and I think that's an unnecessarily inflammatory characterization.

... There will no doubt be some non-protesters drawn to the fringes of the protest as a cover for plain old vandalism with no protest intended.

... In fact, there may be some who just want to see the vandalism be blamed on the students.

... And there may be some provocateurs - police or otherwise I who vandalize and try to incite others to do so, to give police an excuse to shut the legitimate protests down.

... And there are some political 'anarchists' who (eg) broke the windows of 5 banks one night this week.

Regardless, the police should be dealing with illegal actions with arrests, etc., keeping them separate from protesters who are not engaging in illegal acts.

If they are NOT doing so, it's likely because they DO have provocateurs among them.

Some of the student groups have already spoken out about the violence, the others for some stupid reason have taken direct democracy to the Nth degree, saying they need to vote on it. No, idiots. You don't have to vote on it. You need to condemn all violence. The police too need to be condemned for not handling the violent anarchists, instead of using that violence as a pretext to trample rights that we should all respect.

ALL of the student groups have said they don't condone 'violence'. The government is trying to demonize one umbrella group (CLASSE) that represents the largest group of students - the college student associations. The other two groups represent Cegeps and universities respectively.

Student associations have elected leaders who speak for their members.

They have no authority to 'give orders' to students, though they can ask people to avoid vandalism, and all 3 groups have done so.

The CLASSE website allows posts from members. The Tues protest was organized online there spontaneously - leaders did not do the callout. But the gov rep used that as a (feeble) excuse to throw CLASSE out of the 'negotiations'. The other two groups walked out with CLASSE.

The elected/volunteer leaders cannot 'promise' the protests will stop - though they are currently not organizing any - and they certainly can't promise to stop the vandalism because they never told them to start!

Personally, I think it's disgusting that the government is trying to demonize the college students. Charest's oft-repeated sneer "You want me to negotiate with 'CLASSE'?" would reveal the disgusting biased if he sneered "You want me to negotiate with 'college students'?"

It's just divide and conquer tactics, signifying that the government has no sincere intention to negotiate a settlement but rather, they are just trying to threaten and intimidate the students into giving up their protests altogether.

Right now, Charest is getting a nice bounce in his polls because of his hardline stance. However, as time goes on with no resolution, that will change. It will take some more student strike time for people and the gov to realize that they're getting nowhere that way.

Kudos to the students for standing firm, together, undivided and uncowed.

Solidarity is critical.

Vandalism is a police problem, and NOT an excuse to criminalize legitimate, peaceful protest.

After the debacle of the G20, it is absolutely critical that we all insidt on our right to peaceful protest even when there are vandals around.

(How the hell do we know whether they are anarchists, cops, provocateurs, or criminals-of-opportunity?)

Otherwise we will lose our freedom of speech and assembly: Police will just take that advantage, smash a couple of windows and then shut the protest down.

It IS the responsibility of police FIRST to protect our right to protest peacefully ... and THEN to prevent crime.

[Boges]

Right now, Charest is getting a nice bounce in his polls because of his hardline stance. However, as time goes on with no resolution, that will change. It will take some more student strike time for people and the gov to realize that they're getting nowhere that way.

Well the students are the ones losing out. Are you telling me that every potential in student in Quebec will refuse to pay the hike next year? Or is this a picket line situation.

Vandalism is a police problem, and NOT an excuse to criminalize legitimate, peaceful protest.

Well if they allow protestors in their midst to vandalize their message will be lost in the outrage of citizens getting their stuff ruined.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Boges

[jacee]

Well the students are the ones losing out. Are you telling me that every potential in student in Quebec will refuse to pay the hike next year? Or is this a picket line situation.

The students are on strike/boycotting classes ... and it's working: The colleges and universities are pressuring the government because they're going to lose an academic year. And they've indicated that it may already be too late to process and implement the first increase in tuition.

I would expect the students will refuse to pay the increase, if indeed they are back in classes by then, but I have not read anything firm on this.

Well if they allow protestors in their midst to vandalize their message will be lost in the outrage of citizens getting their stuff ruined.

"Allow"?

How would you suggest they stop them?

That's a job for the police, WITHOUT interfering with a peaceful protest.

"In their midst"?

How do the protesters know where the 'vandals' came from?

From the crowd?

Through the crowd?

From an alley?

From an office/store?

From a bar?

From among the cops?

The vandals are a problem for the police to handle,

WITHOUT interfering with a peaceful protest. Only the police know which ones are their own 'provocateurs', after all.

The police do not and cannot take orders from the government/Premier.

They don't impose government policy with force.

'Orders' from government/Premier are illegal orders and every officer has the responsibility to refuse.

However, the police prefer not to police protests (we're citizens, not clearcut criminals, but annoying) and they will try to incite a riot (any illegal act) so they can 'read the riot act' - declare the entire protest "an illegal assembly" and then they disperse people with tear gas, rubber bullets, tasers, sound cannons, water cannons, and whatever toys they brought for that purpose.

The "outrage of citizens" should be directed to their provincial government reps.

That's who has the means to negotiate a solution.

But it likely won't happen until Charest's popularity slides.

[dre]

So Rioting over education is supposed to get results?

That's how you effect change in democracy. I have nothing against demonstrating, but violence doesn't effect the type of change you'd want.

Rioting can get results yes.

BTW... the arab spring wasnt primarily about democracy vs dictatorship, it was also about economics. It started with food riots, over prices.

And you are just seeing the beginning of this kind of thing. Violence to one degree or another is a forgone conclusion. Young people are waking up to the fact we have squandered their future so that we could have larger TV sets, and theyre none to happy about it.

[capricorn]

The "outrage of citizens" should be directed to their provincial government reps.

That's who has the means to negotiate a solution.

But it likely won't happen until Charest's popularity slides.

I don't think reading of this situation is based on reality. The fact is, Charest's popularity was sliding but then along came rioting students. Now Charest's popularity is rising. That's not surprising. When there is a breakdown in law and order as we've seen in the streets of Montreal, citizens turn to their elected government to stand up to the threat and restore law and order. As for the opposition, although Marois and Legault are not exactly clear where they stand on the tuition increase, not surprising that they too have denounced the violence.

Avant la grève, son gouvernement allait se présenter devant l'électorat comme une administration usée à la corde par les scandales liés à la corruption. Le niveau d'impopularité des libéraux atteignait des sommets. Ceux-ci n'arrivaient plus à incarner quoi que ce soit de positif aux yeux de la population.

Mais voilà que depuis plusieurs semaines la décision gouvernementale de hausser les frais de scolarité soulève une partie de la population étudiante. Comme les modérés n'ont pas su s'imposer, une minorité d'étudiants radicaux donne le ton au conflit. Ils multiplient les gestes de violence, intimident, cassent et en décousent avec la police. Leur but n'est pas tant de lutter contre la hausse des droits de scolarité que de vivre une expérience révolutionnaire et anarchiste. C'est ce qu'on a vu notamment lorsqu'un groupe a investi un auditorium de l'Université de Montréal, brisant la porte à coup de bélier, vandalisant tout sur son passage, agitant le drapeau rouge des communistes.

---

Les sondages démontrent que la majorité de la population appuie son gouvernement sur la hausse des droits de scolarité. Sans compter qu'une immense majorité réprouve la violence des radicaux ou encore l'ambiguïté hypocrite dont fait preuve la CLASSE devant les débordements. Dans ce qui est devenu une crise menaçant l'autorité de l'État, c'est vers leur premier ministre élu que la majorité des Québécois semble se tourner spontanément. Celui-ci incarne la légitimité nationale en étant le premier responsable de l'ordre et de la sécurité de tous devant l'anarchie.

---

Le radicalisme étudiant est une bénédiction pour les libéraux.

http://quebec.huffingtonpost.ca/frederic-bastien/jean-charest-classe_b_1457492.html?ref=politique

Setting fires, widespread vandalism, dropping rocks from overpasses, assaulting police and waving the Communist flag are not images Quebecers want to see on the nightly news. In all of this, the rational voices of moderate students intent on negotiating a resolution have been drowned out and that's a pity.

[jacee]

I have a feeling in time we will see this as Agent Provocateur action.

I expect so. That's the SQ way ... provoke and engage.

But ... it appears that Charest wants to negotiate now thru the media:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/business/story.html?id=6529962

QUEBEC - Premier Jean Charest and Education Minister Line Beauchamp summoned reporters Friday morning to present their six- point plan to end an 11-week student strike that has imperilled the academic year of about 180,000 Quebec students

But the student associations who have led the strike were unimpressed with Charest’s cal for them to end their “boycott” and get back to their classrooms, saying the government continues to ignore their chief demand — that Quebec tuition fees remain frozen at $2,168 a year

“There is an increase in the tuition fees,” Charest said. “Let’s not pretend it isn’t there.” Quebec’s proposal to end the impasse calls for spreading the proposed five-year, $1,625 ncrease over seven years.

I think I get it ... the universities and colleges have a deadline to publish and process the increase for the fall, so Charest has to act fast.

I wonder if the students will just wait that one out ...

[cybercoma]

I agree that it is the duty of police to protect the students' right to protes.

I agree that the police should deal with vandalism as the laws allow.

I don't agree that it should all be blamed on "violent anarchists" because ...

... Property damage is a loooong way from violence against people, as 'violence' is normally interpreted, and I think that's an unnecessarily inflammatory characterization.

... There will no doubt be some non-protesters drawn to the fringes of the protest as a cover for plain old vandalism with no protest intended.

... In fact, there may be some who just want to see the vandalism be blamed on the students.

... And there may be some provocateurs - police or otherwise I who vandalize and try to incite others to do so, to give police an excuse to shut the legitimate protests down.

... And there are some political 'anarchists' who (eg) broke the windows of 5 banks one night this week.

Regardless, the police should be dealing with illegal actions with arrests, etc., keeping them separate from protesters who are not engaging in illegal acts.

If they are NOT doing so, it's likely because they DO have provocateurs among them.

ALL of the student groups have said they don't condone 'violence'. The government is trying to demonize one umbrella group (CLASSE) that represents the largest group of students - the college student associations. The other two groups represent Cegeps and universities respectively.

Student associations have elected leaders who speak for their members.

They have no authority to 'give orders' to students, though they can ask people to avoid vandalism, and all 3 groups have done so.

The CLASSE website allows posts from members. The Tues protest was organized online there spontaneously - leaders did not do the callout. But the gov rep used that as a (feeble) excuse to throw CLASSE out of the 'negotiations'. The other two groups walked out with CLASSE.

The elected/volunteer leaders cannot 'promise' the protests will stop - though they are currently not organizing any - and they certainly can't promise to stop the vandalism because they never told them to start!

Personally, I think it's disgusting that the government is trying to demonize the college students. Charest's oft-repeated sneer "You want me to negotiate with 'CLASSE'?" would reveal the disgusting biased if he sneered "You want me to negotiate with 'college students'?"

It's just divide and conquer tactics, signifying that the government has no sincere intention to negotiate a settlement but rather, they are just trying to threaten and intimidate the students into giving up their protests altogether.

Right now, Charest is getting a nice bounce in his polls because of his hardline stance. However, as time goes on with no resolution, that will change. It will take some more student strike time for people and the gov to realize that they're getting nowhere that way.

Kudos to the students for standing firm, together, undivided and uncowed.

Solidarity is critical.

Vandalism is a police problem, and NOT an excuse to criminalize legitimate, peaceful protest.

After the debacle of the G20, it is absolutely critical that we all insidt on our right to peaceful protest even when there are vandals around.

(How the hell do we know whether they are anarchists, cops, provocateurs, or criminals-of-opportunity?)

Otherwise we will lose our freedom of speech and assembly: Police will just take that advantage, smash a couple of windows and then shut the protest down.

It IS the responsibility of police FIRST to protect our right to protest peacefully ... and THEN to prevent crime.

jacee, people I know that are directly involved with these actions have condemned the violence and I have it from very reliable sources that the violence is the work of anarchist radicals that are piggy-backing on the legitimate protests. They are shameful opportunists.

The problem is that any violence, even property damage, is akin to terrorism. No government anywhere can condone and encourage the destruction of property and violence by hearing the claims of a group that undertakes these means for their political ends. The legitimate protesters need to distance themselves from these radicals and question why the police are not protecting their right to protest by cracking down on anarchists. Those with legitimate concerns ought to be furious that anarchists are using this as an opportunity to destroy property and use violence. By not distancing themselves, the de-legitimize their grievances.

I fully support the students, their right to protest, and even the reasons they are protesting. What I do not and cannot condone are the violent actions of a few that have piggy-backed onto these legitimate protests, seeing it as an opportunity to be destructive. That I condemn. And I am heavily critical of the police for using those radicals as a pretext to shut down legitimate protests, as though they're incapable of distinguishing between the two. The police have utterly failed to protect the protesters from these radicals and I'm disappointed that the public and the media are not holding them accountable.

[Boges]

Rioting can get results yes.

BTW... the arab spring wasnt primarily about democracy vs dictatorship, it was also about economics. It started with food riots, over prices.

And you are just seeing the beginning of this kind of thing. Violence to one degree or another is a forgone conclusion. Young people are waking up to the fact we have squandered their future so that we could have larger TV sets, and theyre none to happy about it.

Who doesn't want larger TVs?

[capricorn]

Who doesn't want larger TVs?

The rioting students are probably grateful to their parents for providing them larger TVs...for free.

[August1991]

The riots are BS. Quebec tuition is already absurdly low, many times lower than it is for students in most other provinces. Quebec leeches need to learn to pay for stuff themselves rather than expect someone else to keep picking up the tab.

What does this have to do with anything?

Why is it that school until Grade 12 in ROC is tuition free and then suddenly, it's not? And who decided that university students would pay about 30% of the cost and taxpayers the other 70%?

The financing of Canada's education system seems very arbitrary. Finland, for example, once had a dysfunctional education system too whereas now Finnish students pay no tuition at all, regardless of their level.

You're right I don't. Enlighten me. Are there examples of rioting effecting political change in Quebec.

There have been eight or so student strikes in Quebec in the past and they have generally been "successful" since Quebec tuition fees are among the lowest in North America.

[August1991]

What are the potential and/or likely earnings of someone with a Visual Arts Degree, Communications Degree, English Literature Degree, Philosophy Degree or my favourite, The Poly Sci Degree.

BoA's are actually becoming increasingly useless.

If Post-Secondary education was a guarantee of future affluence then the tuition should be considered an investment.

Study after study shows that a BA results in an increase in annual income.

High School Diploma - High school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million in lifetime income.

Bachelors degree - Those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million over a lifetime:

High School to Bachelors - That average value of a 4-year degree is increased earnings income of $900,000, almost a million dollars.

Some Web Site

When quebec starts making it own money and not living off handouts from the west, then they can do what they want, but till then pay up.

An accident of nature under Alberta's soil (discovered in 1935) and a curious clause in our Constitution (the 1867 BNA Act) explain equalization payments. It has nothing to do with work effort or innate ability.

It's noteworthy that I met a young student from northern Alberta in Montreal recently. (His French was not bad!) He was in Quebec because a university here happened to have the best programme in Canada for his specialty.

The police in Quebec should be ashamed of themselves for failing to protect the legitimate protesters from radical anarchist groups piggy-backing onto these demonstrations.

Easier said than done. I reckon that civil disobedience has a long history in France and while Quebec is unlike France in many ways, this is an instance where they are similar.

In some ways, I think that this is healthy for democracy. It is hard to imagine such societies ever becoming dictatorships if there is a vigilant fronde willing to take to the streets.

Edited April 28, 2012 by August1991

[August1991]

The rioting students are probably grateful to their parents for providing them larger TVs...for free.

I am more surprised about the complaint of graduating with a large student debt; well, if tuition fees are kept low, the government borrows in our name. So, students either have a personal debt - or they have a collective debt. Is there any difference if you owe 30,000$ or if your family owes 90,000$?

Some people in Quebec talk about "collective rights" and "individual rights". Well, is a "collective debt" better or worse than an "individual debt"?

[huh]

Good for them. They've done very well for their students who can become professionals without a mountain of debt. Shame on the rest of Canada for not following suit. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom.

If it was solely Quebec's money I would be all for it, but it isn't, and maybe the culture they have has something to do with that. Those students don't deserve to have money handed to them via subsidy that came from a have province that charges their own students two or three times as much. They just don't.

[August1991]

If it was solely Quebec's money I would be all for it, but it isn't, and maybe the culture they have has something to do with that. Those students don't deserve to have money handed to them via subsidy that came from a have province that charges their own students two or three times as much. They just don't.

"Quebec's money"?

We pay our taxes as individuals, and we cash our cheques as individuals.

----

IOW, corporations don't pay taxes - for the same reason that corporations don't receive subsidies. When a government gives a subsidy to a corporation, does the "corporation" get the money? Someone, a person, benefits. In the same sense, "corporations" don't pay taxes.

Edited April 28, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

Finland, for example, once had a dysfunctional education system too whereas now Finnish students pay no tuition at all, regardless of their level.

Yeah but the Finnish government doesnt have to run a country full of Canadians.

[jacee]

jacee, people I know that are directly involved with these actions have condemned the violence and I have it from very reliable sources that the violence is the work of anarchist radicals that are piggy-backing on the legitimate protests. They are shameful opportunists.

The problem is that any violence, even property damage, is akin to terrorism. No government anywhere can condone and encourage the destruction of property and violence by hearing the claims of a group that undertakes these means for their political ends. The legitimate protesters need to distance themselves from these radicals and question why the police are not protecting their right to protest by cracking down on anarchists. Those with legitimate concerns ought to be furious that anarchists are using this as an opportunity to destroy property and use violence. By not distancing themselves, the de-legitimize their grievances.

I fully support the students, their right to protest, and even the reasons they are protesting. What I do not and cannot condone are the violent actions of a few that have piggy-backed onto these legitimate protests, seeing it as an opportunity to be destructive. That I condemn. And I am heavily critical of the police for using those radicals as a pretext to shut down legitimate protests, as though they're incapable of distinguishing between the two. The police have utterly failed to protect the protesters from these radicals and I'm disappointed that the public and the media are not holding them accountable.

I completely agree.

The student groups have done what they can to distance themselves from the vandalisn. I was only trying to make the point that they can't be expected to 'stop' them and that is the job of police.

And yes, the police should be protecting the protesters, not seeking any excuse to shut them down, as you say.

I don't think we disagree about anything here.Nobody's asking the gov to negotiate with the anarchists. At the same time, the gov can't ignore the students because there are militants operating independently.

Some people want to hold the student protesters responsuble for the vandalism, but it's not clear what they expect them to do about it - turn into a bunch of vigilantes and 'arrest' them? Being "furious" at them isn't a solution, and in fact such heightened emotions are not a good thing to bring to a peaceful protest.

No, they should leave it to the police, who should NOT punish the many peaceful protesters for the acts of a few who may just be troublemakers, not protesters at all.

If every protest is violently dispersed with tear gas etc, every time some individuals misbehave, we have lost our freedom to protest as all police have to do is deploy a few provocateurs as excuses to shut it down.

It's a reality that some militants will be around when there are protests. Protest leaders can speak out against that, but they cannot control that. Police can.

I strongly condemn the police for trying to shut down the protests instead of protecting the right to peaceful protest.

It appears that Charest is moving on negotiating something, albeit through the media. It's clear that students aren't accepting his initial offer, but it's a start.

Their request hasn't changed: No increase this year.

Edited April 28, 2012 by jacee

[Smallc]

Yeah but the Finnish government doesnt have to run a country full of Canadians.

[August1991]

Yeah but the Finnish government doesnt have to run a country full of Canadians.

Your point?

For example, why can't Quebec be Finland? Like Finlanders, Quebecers are civilized people who have their own society and language on the edge of a large continent.

---

And like Quebecers, the Finns share the same currency with the rest of the continent.

Edited May 5, 2012 by August1991

[Boges]

Yes because higher tuition is a perfectly acceptable reason to smoke bomb Montreal's subway system.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/smoke-bombs-cripple-montreal-subway-system-during-morning-rush-hour/article2428556/

[GostHacked]

Yes because higher tuition is a perfectly acceptable reason to smoke bomb Montreal's subway system.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/smoke-bombs-cripple-montreal-subway-system-during-morning-rush-hour/article2428556/

That was coordinated, and almost looks like a dry run of something bigger. I just hope it does not pan out to be a prelude to a real terror attack.

[mentalfloss]

Yes because higher tuition is a perfectly acceptable reason to smoke bomb Montreal's subway system.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/smoke-bombs-cripple-montreal-subway-system-during-morning-rush-hour/article2428556/

That was stupid.

Hopefully the protestors continue to peacefully get their valid message across.

[fellowtraveller]

I've heard that after these hikes that Quebec will still have the lowest tuition rates in the country.

They also have one of the lowest post secondary attendance rates in the country, or so says Andrew Coyne.

and of course we must keep repeating that the tuition hikes planned for PQ have no affect on low income students, they pay nothing now and pay nothing after the hike.

[fellowtraveller]

For example, why can't Quebec be Finland? Like Finlanders, Quebecers are civilized people who have their own society and language on the edge of a large continent

Can we somehow rationalize the savage beating of a policeman into those civilzed people?