Guest Peeves Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) I have been a union member, a union elected rep, a member of management, and an independent self employed consultant. I've never been unemployed. I've never collected EI. and I resent socialist programs that take tax payers hard earned money to provide unrealistic, programs and civic workers union contracts and pensions that cost the rest of us one way or another. Every $ the government gives to somebody or something they take from us. Demanding more from the government is only going to result in taking more from the working person. Governments that 'give' largesse to get votes are the bane of the tax payer. Seeing the waste as in E. Health, costly Green energy programs, Ornge, closing generating plants for political gain alone make our Liberals the bete noir of the tax paying public AND those not paying taxes who would have more benefits without the waste and mismanagement in government. Not just the Liberals. The NDP that would trade an ethical position for a concession. Nor just the NDP, a Conservative government that would allow the Tony Clement pork barrel or an MP that would think a $16.00 glass of juice is her right as our representative. But, she won't get fired..not a chance, but she should be. I'm sick of Government and unions taking, looking out for only themselves and/or votes, and shitting on the tax payer. http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/05/canadians-have-no-interest-in-joining-unions-poll Canadians have no interest in joining unions: Poll81 By Stefania Moretti ,QMI Agency The vast majority of non-unionized Canadians have no interest in joining a union, according to a new poll released Monday. The Canadian LabourWatch Association, which describes itself as a not-for-profit, pro-employee choice advocacy group, commissioned Nanos Research to survey working Canadians on their impressions of unions and found just under a third belong to an employee union. For most, membership came when they took the job. Nearly eight in 10 who did not hold a union job would not want to be unionized if given the choice, Nanos said. Nearly 84% agreed with having a secret ballot vote when forming a union is on the table. Roughly three-quarters agreed with the right of workers to cross picket lines. The majority of workers were also opposed to the idea of union dues paying for things such as partisan politics (59.8%), including attack ads (73.3%) and non-work advocacy groups (70%). A whopping 83% of Canadians agreed with mandatory public financial disclosure for both public and private sector unions on a regular basis. John Mortimer, president of LabourWatch, said Canada is the only country where someone's job is at risk if they don't finance a union's political agenda. That's because union dues in Canada are a condition of employment. "You must pay union dues to get your job and keep you job even if the union uses them not for collective bargaining but for politics," he said. "In every other country, from Sweden to Russia, Italy to England, Australia to the U.S., that's no longer allowed. Money in politics in the rest of the world is voluntary money, not compelled money. "The Canadian public is not entitled to know at law what is going on with union financial," he said, adding 75% of the public sector is unionized and tax dollars fund the union dues. On the flip side, a clear majority of respondents said unions have a positive impact on job security. More than half of unionized workers said their dues are well spent and one-in-two still believe unions remain relevant. Nanos randomly surveyed 1,001 employed Canadians between July 20 and July 25, 2011, by telephone for the results of this survey. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.1%, 19 times out of 20. [email protected] Edited April 24, 2012 by Peeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I have been a union member, a union elected rep, a member of management, and an independent self employed consultant. I've never been unemployed. I've never collected EI. and I resent socialist programs that take tax payers hard earned money to provide unrealistic, programs and civic workers union contracts and pensions that cost the rest of us one way or another. Every $ the government gives to somebody or something they take from us. Demanding more from the government is only going to result in taking more from the working person. Governments that 'give' largesse to get votes are the bane of the tax payer. Seeing the waste as in E. Health, costly Green energy programs, Ornge, closing generating plants for political gain alone make our Liberals the bete noir of the tax paying public AND those not paying taxes who would have more benefits without the waste and mismanagement in government. Not just the Liberals. The NDP that would trade an ethical position for a concession. Nor just the NDP, a Conservative government that would allow the Tony Clement pork barrel or an MP that would think a $16.00 glass of juice is her right as our representative. But, she won't get fired..not a chance, but she should be. I'm sick of Government and unions taking, looking out for only themselves and/or votes, and shitting on the tax payer. http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/05/canadians-have-no-interest-in-joining-unions-poll Is this some hamfisted attempt at a demand for RTW legislation in Ontario/Canada??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Labourwatch is a union busting outfit set up by business to try and get unions de-certified, to lobby for anti-union legislation, and to generally support the view of business that employees should be paid as little as possible, have no rights, and have no benefits. I would question the honesty of anything they say and the integrity of any poll, survey or study commissioned by them. Edited April 25, 2012 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Is this some hamfisted attempt at a demand for RTW legislation in Ontario/Canada??? Could be, could be just a tax payer rant. Could be a run for office. Could be pretty much what you want to make it. But I resent the 'ham fisted.' I resent the "demand". Just a perspective. Maybe just a consideration that Canada's obligatory union membership laws are in need of a change and government needs to be more fiscally responsible. Canada is the only country where someone's job is at risk if they don't finance a union's political agenda. That's because union dues in Canada are a condition of employment. Edited April 24, 2012 by Peeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I have been a union member, a union elected rep, a member of management, and an independent self employed consultant. Cool... what kind of Consulting do you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Could be, could be just a tax payer rant. Could be a run for office. Could be pretty much what you want to make it. But I resent the 'ham fisted.' I resent the "demand". Just a perspective. Maybe just a consideration that Canada's obligatory union membership laws are in need of a change and government needs to be more fiscally responsible. Incorrect... No one is obliged to join a union as a condition of employment.As a union steward you should have been knowledgable about the labour laws in Ontario... Look up "Agency Shop" because that's what we work under in this province... Your mischaracterization of the legal situation re. union membership is,indeed,hamfisted...I'd also add poorly informed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Part of this thread is Provincial... And Part of this thread is about the Entitlements of Bev Oda, who appears to think government funds come from Heaven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Part of this thread is Provincial... And Part of this thread is about the Entitlements of Bev Oda, who appears to think government funds come from Heaven And is Bev Oda a union member? I thought she was a doctor and then a politicians... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Could be, could be just a tax payer rant. Could be a run for office. Could be pretty much what you want to make it. But I resent the 'ham fisted.' I resent the "demand". Just a perspective. Maybe just a consideration that Canada's obligatory union membership laws are in need of a change and government needs to be more fiscally responsible. Canada is the only country where someone's job is at risk if they don't finance a union's political agenda. That's because union dues in Canada are a condition of employment. Your quote is completely wrong, btw. Union dues are a condition of employment in any organization which is unionized, be it in Canada or elsewhere in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Neither the Liberals nor the NDP are socialist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Labourwatch is union busting outfit set up by business to try and get unions de-certified, to lobby for anti-union legislation, and to generally support the view of business that employees should be paid as little as possible, have no rights, and have no benefits. I would question the honesty of anything they say and the integrity of any poll, survey or study commissioned by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 And is Bev Oda a union member? I thought she was a doctor and then a politicians... If you read the first post... Tony Clement is Mentioned and the $16 glass of OJ is Bev Oda, although not named specifically.. she is the only one in the news for a glass of juice. Bev Oda a doctor? ScaREY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Labourwatch is union busting outfit set up by business to try and get unions de-certified, to lobby for anti-union legislation, and to generally support the view of business that employees should be paid as little as possible, have no rights, and have no benefits. I would question the honesty of anything they say and the integrity of any poll, survey or study commissioned by them. Yup... Kinda like the National Right To Work Committee,The National Association of Manufacturers,The Cato Institute in the US... All fronts for business under the guise of standing up for the individual workers "freedom" in the workplace... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 The opening post is not that great - just a general lament about "socialists" and a mixed bag of complaints, along with a biased poll. All I'm asking here is that we make the thread about something SPECIFIC that we can discuss. Peeves - what is the specific thing we should be talking about here ? You seem to think there's some idea of fairness in market wages ? That working people shouldn't band together and demand better for themselves. That it's not "fair" ? Maybe we can talk about that. Aren't wages about what will fly in the market ? Usually when I hear people talking about what is fair, it's NDPers demanding that CEO salaries be kept to less than 100 times workers salaries... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 And is Bev Oda a union member? I thought she was a doctor and then a politicians... A doctor not even close ...she was a worked in tv started out at TVO and then to CTV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bev_Oda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 The article in the OP was about unionization. It reports that "just under a third" of workers are unionized, and 80% of those not unionized don't want to be. In other words, 20% of those not unionized would like to be. So that's 32% + (.2 x .68) = 46% who do, or want to belong to a union. We can assume that a substantial portion of the rest are management or business owners. I think the author 'overstates' the conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Roughly three-quarters agreed with the right of workers to cross picket lines These three quarters are idiots. We have anti-scab legislation in BC. Even the conservative gov't (bc libs) that has been in power for more than a decade knows that it promotes labour peace and is good for both business and labour. When BC brought in its anti-scab law, the number of work-days lost to strikes was cut in half in the first year. Without being able to rely on replacement workers, employers return to the bargaining table, and settle negotiations with their employees fairly. Furthermore, there is no solid evidence whatsoever to back up the claim – often made by employers – that anti-scab laws will drive away investment. In fact, after Ontario passed its anti-scab laws Savage reports there was a significant increase in investment and employment. http://theindependent.ca/2012/02/14/enough-is-enough/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Count me among those who would not want to work a unionized job. I've done it before (both in public and private sector jobs), and it's always a negative experience. Waste, inefficiency and sloth are rewarded, efficiency and hard work is punished. The last straw for me was when I was working at a hospital, and I was given an official reprimand for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled my coffee. You know, because only the person whose union classification is cleaning is allowed to use a mop. Labourwatch may well be a "union busting outfit", but to me that would only enhance their credibility. Anyone who is opposed to unions is OK in my book. It's disgusting how unions are allowed to hold business owners hostage, and they should be 'busted'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Count me among those who would not want to work a unionized job. I've done it before (both in public and private sector jobs), and it's always a negative experience. Waste, inefficiency and sloth are rewarded, efficiency and hard work is punished. The last straw for me was when I was working at a hospital, and I was given an official reprimand for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled my coffee. You know, because only the person whose union classification is cleaning is allowed to use a mop. Labourwatch may well be a "union busting outfit", but to me that would only enhance their credibility. Anyone who is opposed to unions is OK in my book. It's disgusting how unions are allowed to hold business owners hostage, and they should be 'busted'. Waste, inefficiency and sloth are rewarded, efficiency and hard work is punished. This is a urban myth. The only real studies that Iv seen into this subject suggest theres very little different in productivity or efficiency between union and non union shops at all. As for the rest of the OP... Almost EVERYONE thinks government funds come from heaven, whether they are conservative, liberal, or socialist. You guys are ALL part of the "magic money" generation, that in a few short decades has not only spent all their own money, but all of your childrens money and most of your grand childrens money as well. The only real difference is what people want the magic money spent on, but theres an almost universal support for the idea that we should go on spending it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 If you read the first post... Tony Clement is Mentioned and the $16 glass of OJ is Bev Oda, although not named specifically.. she is the only one in the news for a glass of juice. Bev Oda a doctor? ScaREY. Point is he writes a rant about government and politicians, some of which I agree with, and then finishes it up by adding in 'unions' and a long piece from an anti-union outfit about how much people really must hate unions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 A doctor not even close ...she was a worked in tv started out at TVO and then to CTV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bev_Oda Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking of Leona Aglukkaq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Count me among those who would not want to work a unionized job. I've done it before (both in public and private sector jobs), and it's always a negative experience. Waste, inefficiency and sloth are rewarded, efficiency and hard work is punished. Hasn't been my experience. Quite the opposite, in fact. However, in general, larger organizations tend to be less efficient, and they also are more likely to be unionized. That's especially so of the public sector. And while the public sector is inefficient it's the fault of management not the workers. As an example, yesterday, at a government department, a big shot was meeting with his new boss. The big shot's office decided the big shot needed a bunch of 'good news' items and all areas of the branch were ordered to produce some 'talking points' and do it TODAY. So all the middle managers in the branch got together with their staff to hurriedly draw up something. Only an hour into it the big shot's office changed the parameters, so everyone had to redo everything. Then the big shots office decided it had to be in power point slides, then they decided... Well, half the day was wasted by half the branch. For nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Hasn't been my experience. Quite the opposite, in fact. However, in general, larger organizations tend to be less efficient, and they also are more likely to be unionized. That's especially so of the public sector. And while the public sector is inefficient it's the fault of management not the workers. As an example, yesterday, at a government department, a big shot was meeting with his new boss. The big shot's office decided the big shot needed a bunch of 'good news' items and all areas of the branch were ordered to produce some 'talking points' and do it TODAY. So all the middle managers in the branch got together with their staff to hurriedly draw up something. Only an hour into it the big shot's office changed the parameters, so everyone had to redo everything. Then the big shots office decided it had to be in power point slides, then they decided... Well, half the day was wasted by half the branch. For nothing. If you look at the annual harbor report, it does detailed analysis between union and non union shops in the auto industry. It backs up what you are saying as well. Theres very little difference in productivity between union and non union shops, and some of the most productive auto plants are unionized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Count me among those who would not want to work a unionized job. I've done it before (both in public and private sector jobs), and it's always a negative experience. Waste, inefficiency and sloth are rewarded, efficiency and hard work is punished. The last straw for me was when I was working at a hospital, and I was given an official reprimand for cleaning up my own mess when I spilled my coffee. You know, because only the person whose union classification is cleaning is allowed to use a mop. Labourwatch may well be a "union busting outfit", but to me that would only enhance their credibility. Anyone who is opposed to unions is OK in my book. It's disgusting how unions are allowed to hold business owners hostage, and they should be 'busted'. What's "disgusting" is the polly anna notion the Free Marketeers have that the meritocracy they promote actually exists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Given the news on Bev Oda lately, I wouldn't say it's the socialists that believe government funds come from heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.