Softwood lumber

[caesar]

WTO again rules in Canada's favour on U.S. softwood duties

August 11, 2004 - 16:22

VANCOUVER (CP) - Canada has won another round in the long-running softwood lumber trade dispute with the United States.

Canada wins again but will the USA ever accept these rulings.

[maplesyrup]

U.S. Must Redo Canadian Lumber Import Levy, WTO Says (Update1)

Canada has been screwed since Day One with these trade agreements with the US. We need to pull out of them now. The US are just a bunch of bullies whether is it is a trade agreement with Canada, or invading Iraq, a defenceless nation.

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[willy]

Canada has been screwed since Day One with these trade agreements with the US. We need to pull out of them now. The US are just a bunch of bullies whether is it is a trade agreement with Canada, or invading Iraq, a defenceless nation.

We don't have a proper agreement on softwood. That is part of the problem.

So we pull completely out. What have you accomplished? They can then legally put duties over any import they like and with the deficit they run on imports they will. Just listen to John Edwards protectionist rants. Scares the heck out to this Canadian who is active with trading in the US, how about we continue to set up better agreements with more open boarders.

[Stoker]

Just listen to John Edwards protectionist rants.

Good point. I don't think you hear about much of his (Kerry too) rants on the CBC.......

I find it odd how most left wingers, who are anti Bush and pro Kerry/Edwards don't see the damage that these two could do to our country if elected. I also find it odd how some left wingers wish us to stop trading as much with the United States, but when a Canadian company decides to go overseas to a country that we have no real relationship with (Poland) they get up in arms over the potentail loss of 2000 Canadian jobs...........You think 2000 job losses are bad, let's see what would happen if Kerry/Edwards get elected and start to "renegotiate" our trade deals.............

[maplesyrup]

Canada has been screwed since Day One with these trade agreements with the US. We need to pull out of them now. The US are just a bunch of bullies whether is it is a trade agreement with Canada, or invading Iraq, a defenceless nation.

We don't have a proper agreement on softwood. That is part of the problem.

So we pull completely out. What have you accomplished? They can then legally put duties over any import they like and with the deficit they run on imports they will. Just listen to John Edwards protectionist rants. Scares the heck out to this Canadian who is active with trading in the US, how about we continue to set up better agreements with more open boarders.

Willy.....I don't have any problem with trade, it is essential in today's world, but there has to be a reflection on the overall impact on our Canadian society.

Where are the advantages for Canada if our work force lose their benefit packages, and any decent wages they have built up over years of negotiations?

If these trade agreements are going to work we should building up the benefits for workers in other countries, not ripping ours down.

It certainly sounds like we need a fresh approach in our labour relations where both sides can more clearly see the benefits of working together as oposed to fighting each other every inch of the way. Perhaps Canada's business schools need some fresh ideas, as well as certain sectors of the union movement.

[takeanumber]

Labour hoarding is the biggest problem with the softwood lumber industry.

Time to face up to the facts. Let the industry shrink to its real size.

The tens of thousands of those who were layed off will need to retrain for better jobs. Some will find worse jobs. Everybody will get what they deserve.

The only thing constant is change. I don't see why the laws of economics should only apply to those who live in the cities.

[willy]

takeanumber, we are competing with 25% duties. Let them get their ball and go home. We have a more efficient operation.

This one is for us to win in the end.

[caesar]

We do have agreements on all lumber trade; it is the Americans who play games and don't abide by the agreements. There is a market for our softwood lumber; the American big business lumber like to keep us out to increase their prices and profits. It is American consumers who suffer.

[takeanumber]

So let the American consumer suffer.

We'll benefit here at home from lower lumber costs.

We should also be keeping our unprocessed pulp from them. And unfinished logs.

If it's wood, it shouldn't be going down south.

[Stoker]

So let the American consumer suffer.

We'll benefit here at home from lower lumber costs.

We should also be keeping our unprocessed pulp from them. And unfinished logs.

If it's wood, it shouldn't be going down south.

That will learn them

I'm sure all those that live in forestry dependent community will be able to pool their welfare checks and put that cheap lumber to use

[caesar]

Take a number; obviously, you are not from British Columbia. Our economy needs the lumber industry running to keep this province running. These lumber disputes are greatly responsible for BC now being a "have not" province.

[caesar]

Good point. I don't think you hear about much of his (Kerry too) rants on the CBC.......

I find it odd how most left wingers, who are anti Bush and pro Kerry/Edwards don't see the damage that these two could do to our country if elected. I also find it odd how some left wingers wish us to stop trading as much with the United States, but when a Canadian company decides to go overseas to a country that we have no real relationship with (Poland) they get up in arms over the potentail loss of 2000 Canadian jobs...........You think 2000 job losses are bad, let's see what would happen if Kerry/Edwards get elected and start to "renegotiate" our trade deals.............

Couldn't do much more harm than Bush. His trade actions are not based on protectionism but are spiteful and revengeful. Arrogant dim witted Cheney puppet.

[Stoker]

Couldn't do much more harm than Bush. His trade actions are not based on protectionism but are spiteful and revengeful. Arrogant dim witted Cheney puppet.

How's that?

[takeanumber]

Try diversifying the economy.

You know, the wood won't last forever, at least, not at the rate the terminites of BC were chewing away at them.

So -- diversify.

If they won't take softwood lumber, turn the lumber into other products that the Americans will buy.

Pulp.

Furniture.

Pieces.

Toilet Paper.

Common. Try adding some value to our natural resources.

I know most people in BC, especially the Chinese, are resourceful, intelligent people. You guys can do it.

Build an economy instead of exporting all of your natural wealth without processing it and adding some value.

You guys got the capital. Put it in the right place.

[caesar]

With proper use the lumber will last forever. When you cut and use ; we replant. Lumber can be easily substained unlike oil.

[caesar]

The Americans do want our lumber; they prefer it as unprocessed raw logs but we prefer to keep the jobs of finishing the lumber in BC. Paper is a dying industry probably largely due to the computer. It is only the lumber barons of the USA weho do not want the competition of our lumber in the USA.

[willy]

Paper is a dying industry probably largely due to the computer.

Did you know more books are printed today than ever before.

Newspapers are still printed at growing rates.

Yellow pages is still the most common advertising for business.

The paper industry was over producing through new efficiencies and growth in the Russian lumber industry.

[Big Blue Machine]

the US will never understans this softwood lumber.

[caesar]

Oh they understand perfectly. By keeping our lumber out by punishing tariffs; they can charge the American consumer higher prices. It is not the American consumer who doesn't want our lumber.

[ceemes]

Just listen to John Edwards protectionist rants.

Good point. I don't think you hear about much of his (Kerry too) rants on the CBC.......

I find it odd how most left wingers, who are anti Bush and pro Kerry/Edwards don't see the damage that these two could do to our country if elected. I also find it odd how some left wingers wish us to stop trading as much with the United States, but when a Canadian company decides to go overseas to a country that we have no real relationship with (Poland) they get up in arms over the potentail loss of 2000 Canadian jobs...........You think 2000 job losses are bad, let's see what would happen if Kerry/Edwards get elected and start to "renegotiate" our trade deals.............

I see it as lesser of two evil. Kerry/Edwards are very protectionist when it comes to trade, and that does not bode well for Canada.

However, I see Bush/Cheney as the bigger threat to trade overall. While they are pro-trade and advocate the expansion of NAFTA to include other Central and South American nations, their foreign and militarlism policies threatens world wide stability and peace and could easily choke world wide trade to death.

I believe that Canada can weather a Kerry/Edwards administration, but I am not sure the world can survive another 4 years of Bush/Cheney.

Also, for all they pro-trade/free trade words, the Bush/Cheney Administration has prove to be very protectist in their own right.

[ceemes]

The Americans do want our lumber; they prefer it as unprocessed raw logs but we prefer to keep the jobs of finishing the lumber in BC. Paper is a dying industry probably largely due to the computer. It is only the lumber barons of the USA weho do not want the competition of our lumber in the USA.

Actually, you are incorrect about paper being a dying industry because of the PC boom. The fact is, the PC boom is the best thing that has happened to the paper industry since the Gutenberg press.

When PC's hit the market place and invaded the workplace, pundits predicted the beginning of the paperless office, when in fact the PC's actually drove the demand for paper up ten fold.

What is hitting the Canadian Pulp and Paper industry in the goolies is cheaper paper coming out of Russia and China. While I was at school, I did a market study of the pulp industry and one of the shocking findings I came across was that in a ten year period, China went from being one of the largest net importers of raw pulp and finished paper to a net exporter, and had grabbed a large part of BC's Asia Pacific markets.

Russian producers have bough a large number of pulp and paper processing plants along with lumber processing mills and equipment from Canadian manufacters. Russia has now started haversting the vast Siberian forest regions and flooding the market with cheap pulp and finished lumber.

Another hit our lumber industry took was from Europe and its Evironmental Standards in regards to finished lumber products. It now cost more for Canadian producers to produce lumber for the European markets. And given BC's Pine Beetle infestion, you really cannot blame the Euro's for wanting to protect their own strands of standing lumber. Also, the Scandivain nations have ramped up their own production of finished lumber and pulp and see Europe as their natual market.

The US is Canada's natural market for both pulp and paper and finished lumber, and indeed US end users prefer the Canadian product to the US product for a number of reasons. However, US producers want to protect that market as their own and shut out Canadian producers at all costs. And the Bush/Cheney Administration is supporting their efforts, giving lie to the Administrations claims to be pro-free trade.

[August1991]

Our dispute with the United States concerns specifically softwood lumber which is wholly used (if I'm not mistaken) in construction.

Here is a good paper in pdf (kinda slow to open) that makes explicit the cost to the US economy of this measure.

When a government imposes a barrier to trade, this should not be perceived as an attack against a foreign country. It should be seen as a government shooting itself in the foot. More accurately, it should be seen as another form of corporate welfare (a term coined by the NDP's David Lewis). Bush (and Clinton before) were offering a benefit to US lumber producers at the expense of US new home buyers.

As to paper, I haven't found a good Internet site that resumes all well. In general, western consumption has slowed its growth in the past few years. The big growth area is Asian consumption (in particular China).

Because of the numerous qualities, the paper market is not simple. In addition, recycled fibres now make up about 35% of the pulp used.

BTW, newspaper circulations are down across North America.

[caesar]

BTW, newspaper circulations are down across North America.

The Canadian Can west newspapers are not printing the newsworthy stories. Unless it promotes its ideas; it doesn't get printed. Mosts newspapers today aren't worth the paper they are written on.

As for Kerry's American protectionism; I think that is more slanted to third world countries that companies outsource things to. The products coming from Canada do not usually fit that mold. However, Gordon Campbell is doing his best to make BC equal to third world countries with low wages and child labour

[caesar]

Canada claims lumber victory

 

Broadcast News

Tuesday, August 31, 2004

 

VANCOUVER -- Canadian politicians and industry leaders are claiming victory in the softwood lumber dispute, but a U.S. official says the battle isn't over yet.

A NAFTA panel has rejected U.S. claims that Canadian imports threaten to harm American producers.

The unanimous decision calls on the U.S. Commerce Department to adopt the ruling.

John Allan of the B.C. Lumber Trade Council calls it a "home run'' for Canada, adding it defeats U-S claims Canadian timber is subsidized.

International Trade Minister Jim Peterson agrees, saying the ruling shows Canadian exports are traded fairly and the U.S. should end the dispute.

But a lawyer representing the U.S. Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports says the NAFTA panel has ignored U.S. law and the facts of the case and he expects an appeal.

Harry Clark says if that fails, the coalition will take the issue to U.S. federal court.

Why do we carry on trade with such idiots

[ceemes]

Try diversifying the economy.

You know, the wood won't last forever, at least, not at the rate the terminites of BC were chewing away at them.

So -- diversify.

If they won't take softwood lumber, turn the lumber into other products that the Americans will buy.

Pulp.

Furniture.

Pieces.

Toilet Paper.

Common. Try adding some value to our natural resources.

I know most people in BC, especially the Chinese, are resourceful, intelligent people. You guys can do it.

Build an economy instead of exporting all of your natural wealth without processing it and adding some value.

You guys got the capital. Put it in the right place.

Actually that is part of the problem........it our finished lumber that is being nailed by US counterveiling duties, not raw logs.

The US producers would love nothing bet then complete and unhindered access to our unprocessed logs and to our forest. Indeed, raw logs shipments to the US have increased during the softwood dispute.