The Rand Formula

[maplesyrup]

I'll give you an example of what I mean by a level playing field:

When General Motors gets on TV with one of their ads promoting their SUVs or whatever, after their commercial is over, consumer groups could be offered equal time to respond with their point of view.

[August1991]

When General Motors gets on TV with one of their ads promoting their SUVs or whatever, after their commercial is over, consumer groups could be offered equal time to respond with their point of view.

MS, you seem to think the corporation General Motors is a rich greedy guy who is the evil mastermind in some silly movie.

Where does General Motors get the money to advertise? From shareholders and car sales. People who buy its cars pay indirectly for the advertising. If Ford (or Toyota) can do better, their cars will be cheaper.

How would consumer advocacy groups pay for advertising?

----

The level playing field? By what right should an organization be able to take money from you without your permission. Name me one corporation that does that. In fact, MS, name me one corporation that forces you to do something against your will. (Unions do precisely that.)

MS, I understand (and agree with) your desire for a better world where everyone will live better.

(I'm suspicious of your belief that the "weak" need protection. I think your belief is smugly superior.)

I do not believe that unions help poor people.

The past century offers so much evidence that centralized, obligatory powers in the form of unions and the State do not help ordinary people but in fact harm them. What well meaning Soviets did is an absolute sin.

Ordinary people usually know what is best for themselves. Leave them be. They don't need union activists, social workers or bureaucrats telling them what to do unless the opinion is asked for. Let our relations be voluntary - this is the essence of respect.

[maplesyrup]

Someone was asking earlier about Sweden one of our more progressive societies:

Did you know that:

After the 2002 election, 45 percent of Members of Parliament are women, which is a world record.

[maplesyrup]

Social Democracy has played a dominant political role since 1917, after Reformists had confirmed their strength and the Revolutionaries left the party. Social Democratic influence over society and government is often described as Hegemony. After 1932 the Cabinets have been led and dominated by the Social Democrats except for: a few summer months 1936; six years 1976-1982; and three years 1991-1994.

About Sweden.

[Stoker]

When General Motors gets on TV with one of their ads promoting their SUVs or whatever, after their commercial is over, consumer groups could be offered equal time to respond with their point of view.

The consumer groups, I'm sure, would be welcome to purchase air-time at the same rate as that of GM with the networks.........now only if they had the $

Also about Sweden

A military power during the 17th century, Sweden has not participated in any war in almost two centuries. An armed neutrality was preserved in both World Wars. Sweden's long-successful economic formula of a capitalist system interlarded with substantial welfare elements was challenged in the 1990s by high unemployment and in 2000-02 by the global economic downturn, but fiscal discipline over the past several years has allowed the country to weather economic vagaries. Indecision over the country's role in the political and economic integration of Europe delayed Sweden's entry into the EU until 1995, and waived the introduction of the euro in 1999.

AND

Aided by peace and neutrality for the whole 20th century, Sweden has achieved an enviable standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits. It has a modern distribution system, excellent internal and external communications, and a skilled labor force. Timber, hydropower, and iron ore constitute the resource base of an economy heavily oriented toward foreign trade. Privately owned firms account for about 90% of industrial output, of which the engineering sector accounts for 50% of output and exports. Agriculture accounts for only 2% of GDP and 2% of the jobs. The government's commitment to fiscal discipline resulted in a substantial budgetary surplus in 2001, which was cut by more than half in 2002, due to the global economic slowdown, declining revenue, and increased spending. The Swedish central bank (the Riksbank) is focusing on price stability with its inflation target of 2%. Growth remained sluggish in 2003. On September 14, 2003, Swedish voters turned down entry into the euro system, concerned about the impact on democracy and sovereignty.

Ta mig fan Your vaunted Sweden is infested with corporations.........

[Cartman]

As has been asked many times, if Unions were so great, why isn't everybody part of one?

Unions are not appropriate everywhere, so you will never have a society in which everyone is unionized. THE employee in a mom and pop store is probably not going to unionize.

I believe that many people, however, are not unionized because they are often afraid to start one. They are often afraid because of corporate threats (i.e. WalMart repeating over and over again (coded) that they never said they would close their store in Quebec). Gee, how did that come up? They are afraid of corporate threats because because labour legislation is too weak in Canada. How comfortable would you be in openly asking everyone at work about joining a union? Go ahead...give it a whirl...doubt you will do it.

If you had the option of accepting a union wage with benefits vs a non-union wage, what would you accept?

On the other hand, I have also seen people very effectively take corporations to court claiming improper treatment, discrimination etc. While unions sometimes slow the process down because of the number of arbitrations they have to deal with, lawyers often speed things up. Do you want to bargain with a union rep. in the spirit of cooperation (because the union needs the corporation) or a lawyer (who doesn't give a damn about any of them)?

Can you imagine, if as much as one province opted for such laws, the impact it would have

The option already exists in third world countries.

Can you imagine if just one province adopted slavery? No thanx. Without our socialist state, how would Canadians have the education and health care benefits to be competitive in the first place? Difficult to educate your kids on WalMart wages. Again, go ahead and give it a try.

If low wages alone created economic booms, then why is the third world so poor? It is not like they are all militantly unionized. Why are we not poor with our socialist state and demanding workforce? Answer...because the welfare state and unions have worked well economically (for corporations and individuals).

[maplesyrup]

The consumer groups, I'm sure, would be welcome to purchase air-time at the same rate as that of GM with the networks.........now only if they had the $

Stoker.......GM needs to pick up the tab for comsumer groups advertising rebuttals. After all it is their product. That should be the cost of doing business.

Try thinking outside the box.

[maplesyrup]

Sweden´s Environmental Policy - A Brief Overview

Sweden´s Environmental Policy

 

The Ministry of the Environment is responsible for co-ordinating Swedish Government policy on the environment. The Governments objective for Swedish environmental policy is to pass on to the next generation a society in which the major environmental problems have been solved.

Talk about a healthy society.

National Action Plan for Gender Equality

National Action Plan for Gender Equality

 

The overall objective of Sweden’s policy on gender equality is to ensure that women and men have the same opportunities, rights and responsibilities in all significant areas of life.

[Cartman]

Stoker.......GM needs to pick up the tab for comsumer groups advertising rebuttals.

GM cars suck!!!

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: My wife's car has had over $11,000 worth of work ($9,000 warranty).

Sorry...I just couldn't help myself.

[Stoker]

Unions are not appropriate everywhere, so you will never have a society in which everyone is unionized. THE employee in a mom and pop store is probably not going to unionize.

Why?

I believe that many people, however, are not unionized because they are often afraid to start one.  They are often afraid because of corporate threats (i.e. WalMart repeating over and over again (coded) that they never said they would close their store in Quebec). Gee, how did that come up? They are afraid of corporate threats because because labour legislation is too weak in Canada. How comfortable would you be in openly asking everyone at work about joining a union? Go ahead...give it a whirl...doubt you will do it.

We talk about it with our boss every day........A very longstanding joke we have when somebody complains about being tired/making a mistake/weather/hangover/breaking a tool/porta potty conditions etc is followed by : "Go take it up with your union rep"

Are boss jokes with us at the end of the day and before coffee/lunch that we all look like a city crew/union workers.

The vast majority of people in any workplace that I've worked in think of unions as a joke. Why would we want to be a part of one?

If you had the option of accepting a union wage with benefits vs a non-union wage, what would you accept?

I get benefits from my current employer, and make only slightly less (about .75 cents) then if I was in a union. The major difference, is that I have full time work and don't have to deal with the amount of BS of being in a union, compared to friends/formor co-workers that are still in the union and are not working in the height of constrution season.

On the other hand, I have also seen people very effectively take corporations to court claiming improper treatment, discrimination etc. While unions sometimes slow the process down because of the number of arbitrations they have to deal with, lawyers often speed things up. Do you want to bargain with a union rep. in the spirit of cooperation (because the union needs the corporation) or a lawyer (who doesn't give a damn about any of them)?

And if I felt that I was getting a raw deal with my current employer............I'd get another job

Can you imagine if just one province adopted slavery? No thanx. Without our socialist state, how would Canadians have the education and health care benefits to be competitive in the first place? Difficult to educate your kids on WalMart wages. Again, go ahead and give it a try.

How is it slavery? Is somebody forcing them to work? Are they not getting paid? Would they be better off not briniging home a paycheck?

Stoker.......GM needs to pick up the tab for comsumer groups advertising rebuttals. After all it is their product. That should be the cost of doing business.

Try thinking outside the box.

Why's that?

If Ford/Magna funded a comsumer groups, and their findings found that everybody would be better off if they owned a Mustang..........you wouldn't cry foul?

My God, you would have six different threads on this site with the first ten responces by yourself claiming how evil Ford was and how the said comsumer group was in their pocket Gimmie a break.

[Hjalmar]

Countries and groups that achieve successful development do so partly because they have an ethic that encourages the economic virtues of self-reliance, hard work, family and social responsibility, high savings and honesty..... For example, the Germans are still a capable and efficient people, but they are not working anything as hard as they did when they were rebuilding their country after the ruin of defeat in 1945.... In two generations they have gone from working long hours, almost with their bare hands, in conditions of acute poverty, to working short hours for the highest pay and the most expensive welfare on earth.

Such cycles of prosperity undoubtedly undermine virtues of hard work and modest expectations which exist at the early stages of industrial development...... Nations are not able to retain their early virtues, just as individuals can become greedy and less productive with success that comes too easily.

And Germany today has become the largest exporter of jobs in the world.

[Hjalmar]

A socialist minded government has little interest in people who have ambition, drive, and are go-getters..... Rather they recruit their followers from among the losers in our society -- people that may NEED THEM..... This is how they get their votes -- by promising to give people everything imaginable. And in the past, before we heard the words deficit and debt, people bought into this.... But why would anyone today, vote for a party that has nothing to offer but give-aways, when everyone knows that the cupboard is bare?

[August1991]

Countries and groups that achieve successful development do so partly because they have an ethic that encourages the economic virtues of self-reliance, hard work, family and social responsibility, high savings and honesty.

If it were only so simple, hjalmar. I would defer to Adam Smith here. The Wealth of Nations comes about when individuals can trade with each other as freely as possible. Policies that hinder individuals co-operating make countries poor.

If low wages alone created economic booms, then why is the third world so poor? It is not like they are all militantly unionized. Why are we not poor with our socialist state and demanding workforce? Answer...because the welfare state and unions have worked well economically (for corporations and individuals).

Cartman, you are confusing correlation with causation. Union participation in the US has fallen in the past 50 years while its real GDP per capita has grown. This reverse correlation says nothing about cause and effect.

The social sciences are unfortunately filled with such bad reasoning.

[Cartman]

Cartman, you are confusing correlation with causation. Union participation in the US has fallen in the past 50 years while its real GDP per capita has grown.

Actually, I was aware of this when I posted the argument. All sciences contain such reasoning and some people argue that the elusive search for causality is pointless. Nevertheless, I do not think that this is mere coincidence and just because union participation has fallen does not mean that growth was never caused by union participation in the first place.

I believe that the main reason why Canada and others developed such strong economies (as opposed to say India and others) is because workers demanded their fair share of the pie and demanding does not necessarily mean unionized. This translated into the welfare state which not only benefits citizens, but corporations as well. A downtrodden, compliant workforce is not sufficient for a corporation to be profitable.

Though compelling, I do not accept everything that Adam Smith wrote. There is almost a sense of divine intervention in the notion of an "invisible hand" at work. Markets require ethical intervention and even Smith accepted that there needed to be some intervention.

For those who truly believe in a completely free market devoid of state moral intrusions, I have a business proposition for you (of course, I will be rhetorical here). Let's start up a child pornography business! It will be very profitable as long as the state stays off of our backs. Think of the money we will make!!! Who is with me? Why might you protest? Morality of course. We all believe, in this instance, that moral concerns are more important than is the profit objective and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Guest eureka]

Democracy does not entail the triumph of majorities. Democracy, and the laws that support it, is all about the protection of minorities from majorities.

Right to Work legislation probably contravenes the International Covenant on Social, Political & Economic Rights.

Low taxes do not correlate to prosperity. Canada is a "low-taxed" nation: too low to sustain a civilized society.

The greatest periods of growth and prosperity in the West DO coincide with periods of strong Union membership. The low groth of the final 20 years of the last century DOES coincide with the decline of unions under the onslaught of the neo-lib view of Capitalist development.

[August1991]

I have a business proposition for you (of course, I will be rhetorical here). Let's start up a child pornography business!

Will the children participate voluntarily? Are they capable of even deciding? Free markets suffer various weaknesses. Your example is not one of them.

There is almost a sense of divine intervention in the notion of an "invisible hand" at work.

There is nothing divine in it, nor did Smith ever suggest this. Instead, he observed that personal greed exercised through a free market with prices leads to a greater common good. People have been trading (co-operating) for several thousands years using numbers (prices) but Smith was the first to examine how this mechanism works. Judging by the posts to this forum, many still misunderstand the concept. I don't think the revolution occurred with Smith, it occurred when the first guy invented numbers to determine terms of trade. This invention arguably made the single greatest impact on human wellbeing.

Markets require ethical intervention and even Smith accepted that there needed to be some intervention.

Markets need nothing of the sort. I would argue that most of our social problems arise because markets don't exist or are fettered in some way.

In simple terms, two athletes competing for one gold medal leads to a tired winner and a tired loser. Compare that with two sellers competing over a number, a price. Here too, there is a winner and a loser - but a third person, the customer, indirectly benefits. I think this is the key insight of Smith. IOW, competition without prices is a recipe for waste. Competition with prices is a recipe for wealth.

Democracy does not entail the triumph of majorities. Democracy, and the laws that support it, is all about the protection of minorities from majorities.

Democracy presumably about a majority deciding. A constitution is about protecting a minority against a majority decision. The US Bill of Rights expressly protects individuals against the power of the State.

The greatest periods of growth and prosperity in the West DO coincide with periods of strong Union membership. The low groth of the final 20 years of the last century DOES coincide with the decline of unions under the onslaught of the neo-lib view of Capitalist development. 

You offer no evidence to support this claim. (I disagree that the past 20 years were 'low growth'.) In any case, correlation does not mean causality.

Unions are cartels and on balance, these prevent people from making mutually beneficial (profitable) trades. People and countries are poorer as a result.

[Hugo]

I have a business proposition for you (of course, I will be rhetorical here). Let's start up a child pornography business! It will be very profitable as long as the state stays off of our backs.

The key tenet of capitalism is that all transactions and trade be voluntary. The children in this child porn have not given their consent and cannot, because they are of diminished responsibility. Your business idea is profoundly anti-capitalist, and for examples of such egregious kinds of dealing you would have to look at the Soviet Union or the PRC.

[Hjalmar]

Right to Work legislation probably contravenes the International Covenant on Social, Political & Economic Rights.

It's a good thing you left some doubt there by inserting the word "probably". Do you honestly think the 22 states in the USA that now have these "right to work" laws, would have enacted them, one by one, if that were the case? The last state that brought in these laws was Oklahoma and that was only about 2 years ago.

Low taxes do not correlate to prosperity. Canada is a "low-taxed" nation: too low to sustain a civilized society.

To the best of my recollection every election in Canada, over the past 10 or more years, be it Federal or Provincial, has been won with the promise of some tax relief of one sort or another in their election platform with the exception of one, that being the last Federal election. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Governments in this day and age are becoming more fiscally responsible and I would go so far as to suggest that the welfare state, as we have come to know it, is on it's death bed. More emphasis is being placed on security for the citizens of a country and less on social spending. At the same time, and for the first time in history, all governments today are faced with competition from a tax standpoint.

[maplesyrup]

Why is there so much child pornography in the US and Canada then?

[Guest eureka]

Let me put it more decisively then. Right to Work legislation does contravene the ICPSE: as does Workfare legislation. The problem is not in the laws passed in the US, but, as with the USA and the world, in enforcing the conditions.

You might note that I repeatedlt talk of the crimes of the neo-libs. Yes, elections over the past couple of decades have been fought on taxes: the only thing on which the ideologues can confuse the people. However, taxes in Canada are in the lower half of the G8 rates. Another cause, perhaps, of the decline in growth rates.

I did not imply causality to Unionism and the decine in economic performance. I pointed to the coincidence. However, I would suggest that it is one of many causal factors since purchasing power also reduced in that time. Perhaps tax reductions also contributed since that is one of the ways in which investment is reduced and money "leaks" out of the productive economy.

The postings on Adam Smith do not seem to pay attention to Smith's belief in regulation. That is the ignored part of his theories. Also, Smith was a man with a social conscience as his more important, but seldom referenced work on "Moral Sensibilities" - the title has slipped my mind, would show. He is much misused in the claim to support by the new Right.

[Hugo]

Why is there so much child pornography in the US and Canada then?

The same reason there is so much rape and murder. People are not always moral and do not always obey the law.

[maplesyrup]

Or maybe our North American societies are not as healthy as you profess them to be. Why is it Norway doesn't have such problems, eh?

[Hugo]

Cultural differences. North American culture is individualistic, which has both positive and negative results. On the positive side, it leads to great economic performance and scientific or technical output. However, individualism or nonconformity expressed in negative ways becomes crime.

Because of the differences in cultural outlook between Norwegians and Americans, Norway is unlikely to ever have the same crime problems but is also unlikely to ever match the economic or scientific output of America, even on a per-capita basis.

[Hjalmar]

The problem is not in the laws passed in the US, but, as with the USA and the world, in enforcing the conditions.

Ok, now square that with the mentality of forcing people to join unions? I thought monopolies were illegal in the corporate world and labour unions today fall into the same category.

Perhaps tax reductions also contributed since that is one of the ways in which investment is reduced and money "leaks" out of the productive economy.

I see -- So you're saying that money is better left in government coffers rather than in peoples pockets? I see it the other way around.

[Cartman]

In any case, correlation does not mean causality.

I am sick of hearing this so I will ask a VERY simple question.

WHAT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES CAUSALITY?

How do you know that your logic does not contain a spurious variable? You cannot know this unless you are God. How can you clearly demonstrate temporal sequence? You cannot know this unless you are God. All you can demonstrate is covariance which basically is correlation.

I can accept this criticism so far, but I do believe that there are other forms of knowledge. I think Hugo? once stated that experience counts for something and I would tend to agree to an extent.