The Rand Formula

[willy]

Side note:

The IWA is in talks to merge with a major American union.

[Cartman]

Do you know which one?

[willy]

Not sure, the story was on talk radio today. I am sure we will hear more soon. I tried CKNW's website but they don't have the story listed.

Consolidation of unions sounds a lot like corporations.

[maplesyrup]

Merger

[maplesyrup]

Cartman......IWA is the union that Dave Haggard evolved from if that tells you anything. I understand they are screwed up at the top, so nothing coming from them would surprise me.

[Stoker]

So what does this mean for the average Canadian?

Perhaps that the IWA can now extort more people?

[Hjalmar]

Is greed still good today? ... Labour union greed over the past 30 years is the engine that has driven inflation. ... This same greed has driven down the standard of living for all non-union workers plus all the people that don't work such as retirees etc.

I doubt there are many employers in business for the sole

purpose of providing employment for others... And the employer knows what the bottom line is and what he can afford to pay employees.... If they accept employment at the quoted rate that should be it.... Employees have the freedom to ask for an increase and the employer should have the freedom to deny it without the threat of unions holding the employer to ransom. ... "You want more than you have, become more than you are" [Jim Rhone.. 1980]

[Hjalmar]

How can anyone in their right mind defend a system that gives so much power to a group where people are denied the right to decide, as individuals, whether or not they wish to belong to a labour union?

And these people even have the audacity to try to take credit for having advanced the cause of the non-union worker!!! Give me a break!!! The non-union worker has been going downhill vis-a-vis the union worker for the past 30 years.

How fitting for a fat-cat union worker to then refer to non-union workers as misers!!! Perhaps the labor union movement has had a lot to do with forcing many of them to penny pinch..... Think about that very carefully before responding.

The non-union worker is clamoring for revenge...revenge against a very unfair system...a system that is hurting them big time.

We need Voluntary Unionism in the country.... Everyone should have the right to decide whether to opt in or out of a labor union..... It's called "right to work" laws.

[Cartman]

If they accept employment at the quoted rate that should be it.... Employees have the freedom to ask for an increase and the employer should have the freedom to deny it without the threat of unions holding the employer to ransom. ... "You want more than you have, become more than you are" [Jim Rhone.. 1980]

So, I assume that you are supporting the NHL players union because they simply want the right to individually bargain with owners whereas the owners want them to collectively accept wage limits. As you said, employees can make requests or leave and corporations are free to reject their requests. But...for some strange reason, I suspect that you will be in favour of those poor owners.

[Guest eureka]

Hjalmar!

Do you ever stop to think how completely you have swallowed the misinformation of the neo-lib counter revolution? I suggested earlier that you might, almost, have been a student of Strauss because you spout the same unthinking, self righteous nonsense. Obsfuscation, nonsense and disinformation are the essence of his argumentation and you post the same. The "Right" does not present any ideas from the desire to better society: it seeks only self-interest; the greed you attribute to unions. That is the nature of the beast as you agree in your more lucid moments.

Your definite statements such as labour union greed etc. are pure nonsense as is the corollary (in your view) of non-union suffering as consequence. The first is incorrect and the second could not follow as you would see if you put aside Mike Harris's scripted speeches.

I admire your ability to regurgitate the passages from right wing text books but I would suggest that you take your ideas a step further. Remember Socrates? Question! question! question. Question your own assumptions as well as those of your mentors.

The amusing idea of American individualism as a contrast to certain other societies seems also to have crept in. In fact, America is only individualist in its own mythology. It is, perhaps, the most comformist society in the Western World.

One defining difference between America and Canada is the reverse of what is taken for granted. Canada is more individualistic. America is a society where deference to authority is the norm; where the greatest civil offense is to be different; to dissent from the "American Way."

[Hjalmar]

One defining difference between America and Canada is the reverse of what is taken for granted. Canada is more individualistic. America is a society where deference to authority is the norm; where the greatest civil offense is to be different; to dissent from the "American Way."

Have you ever noticed when a person, who has been living in Canada for perhaps 50 years, is asked what nationality they are, the answer is usually -- I am French, German, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Irish, Ukranian, English or whatever. You ask a person that has been living in the USA for perhaps 5 years the same question and the answer is usually " I'm American". Why do you think that is? I suggest that Americans are perhaps more proud of their country than Canadians are of theirs. Doesn't that logic hold?

[Hugo]

Canada is more individualistic. America is a society where deference to authority is the norm; where the greatest civil offense is to be different; to dissent from the "American Way."

Nonsense. The greatest opposition to the American Way comes from within America. He's kind of hard to miss, but there's this guy, Michael Moore, hates America, has lots of support. How do you argue that Ralph Nader and George W Bush are pushing the same message? You think Greenpeace and Exxon are skipping down the yellow brick road, hand in hand? I don't think so. Look at how many different subcultures there are within America. America's Marxist-Leninist parties have greater membership than the Canadian versions. In fact, I think the Canadian Marxist party doesn't even have official status anymore. Think of all the different media spins: CNN vs. Fox News, Moore vs. Limbaugh, Chomsky vs. Charen, but in Canada, Fox News is banned.

[Cartman]

I am just happy that I live in a society where working class demands (in the form of unions or the welfare state laws) have benefitted most of us. I think that free market theorists would claim this is "artificially inflating" the level of wages. You right-wingers ought to critically think of the consequences of removing these protections.

If you want third world wages, I encourage you to make such a request to your employer.

[Hjalmar]

The "Right" does not present any ideas from the desire to better society: it seeks only self-interest; the greed you attribute to unions.

So, you're suggesting that we're all birds of a feather?

[Hjalmar]

A scenario to consider

Canada relies heavily on exports... We happen to have been reasonably competitive over the past because of an anemic dollar that has reached lows of 62 cents... Lets be optimistic for a minute and assume our dollar jumps to par overnight.

We are no more competitive today than we were in the late 60's and early 70's when our dollar was near par and at one time went to $1.03... My question would be:..... Will union workers be prepared to eat the difference to allow our country the same competitive advantage we had when the dollar was low?

The gist of my message is that while our dollar has been sliding from par to 62 cents, union workers have managed to eat the difference... Are they prepared to relinquish that and allow our country the same competitive advantage? I thought not!!!!

There are many places for businesses to function successfully and investment dollars are very mobile today... The time has come for Canada to take a hard look at our labor laws... We are out of touch with reality..... I say "half a loaf is better than no bread"

[Hjalmar]

Today, politicians bent on optimizing votes have little incentive to analyze problems coherently... It is hardly surprising therefore that their records in actually solving problems are so pathetic as compared to entrepreneurs, business executives, and coaches of sports teams, who are rewarded according to performance.

The same applies to labor union workers..... The only criteria that counts now, is seniority.... In fact they are actually discouraged from overperforming in order to increase the number employed..... This will all come to an end when the full impact of the global economy is upon us...... Eventually all wage structures will be incentive driven and tied to performance and productivity..... Labor union people who are prepared to accept the inevitability of this now, will have a much easier time than those who choose to shut their eyes to this reality.

In the future, when information will be freely tradeable anywhere on the globe, the power of governments to insulate local businesses from global competitive pressures will be minimal

[Hjalmar]

If you pit yourself against the best and succeed you will never be expendable -- some company will always want the elite worker... . Very few unionized people will ever be in top management positions.

My concern with unions, as they exist today, is that they protect, encourage and coddle the mediocre and the slackers while not encouraging initiative and excellence..... Unions are now big business, they have a vested interest in the status quo and are the least likely to promote innovation....... Which is a darn shame because it is innovation that will ensure the success of the company and therefore the job the union claims to want to protect.

[Hjalmar]

According to "Places Related Almanac" the typical family income for states with "Right to Work" laws is $46,883..... Typical family income in states without RTW laws is $53,630.... However, on average, residents living in states without Right-to-Work laws pay 24.5 percent more for food, housing, health care, transportation, utilities, property taxes, and college tuition than in "Right-to-Work" states.... In states without RTW laws high taxes and the high cost of living erode the purchasing power of income so much that families in states with RTW laws are, on average, actually better off..... Stated another way, low taxes and low or moderate living costs can easily offset lower hourly rates of pay... So, it seems possible that compulsive unionism brings a lower standard of living even for the union workers and furthermore, it is the non unionized and the majority who truly foot the bill for closed shop compulsive unionism..

[maplesyrup]

One defining difference between America and Canada is the reverse of what is taken for granted. Canada is more individualistic. America is a society where deference to authority is the norm; where the greatest civil offense is to be different; to dissent from the "American Way."

Have you ever noticed when a person, who has been living in Canada for perhaps 50 years, is asked what nationality they are, the answer is usually -- I am French, German, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Irish, Ukranian, English or whatever. You ask a person that has been living in the USA for perhaps 5 years the same question and the answer is usually " I'm American". Why do you think that is? I suggest that Americans are perhaps more proud of their country than Canadians are of theirs. Doesn't that logic hold?

Did you ever stop to think what pride in your nation means, and what it can lead to?

No nation is better than another nation, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, their good and their bad.

The reality is there are a few people on this planet with a lot of moola, and we need to wrestle some of it away from them, as they will not share it voluntarily. That is the essence of unionism. And tough if you don't like it, unions are here to stay particularly because of people with your mentality..

You were quite willing to partake of the benefits of unions when you were younger. If unions are so bad, why don't you give all the union benefits, wages, etc. back. Your position sounds very hypocritical.

[Guest eureka]

Have you considered examining those states for other factors than RTW. For example, how many are in the "Rust Belt" and how many in the Sun. There is much, much more to it than that.

[maplesyrup]

Refused bikini top, woman wins $6,000

Do you really think for one second this young woman would have ever received any money if it had not been for her union? I don't think so.

[Hugo]

No nation is better than another nation, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, their good and their bad.

Oh? Explain the strengths of Pol Pot's Cambodia, please.

The reality is there are a few people on this planet with a lot of moola, and we need to wrestle some of it away from them

By what right?

as they will not share it voluntarily.

Unless they are hiding it under the floorboards that simply isn't true. The money of the rich goes back into the economy. Don't you ever wonder where banks get the money to give people mortgages and loans to start businesses?

[Hjalmar]

I think I'll address this one to eureka

Old Fable with a Canadian Twist

CLASSIC VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

THE END

THE CANADIAN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. So far, so good, eh?

The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like him, are cold and starving.

The CBC shows up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a video of the ant in his comfortable warm home with a table laden with food.

Canadians are stunned that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so while others have plenty.

The NDP, the CAW and the Coalition Against Poverty demonstrate in front of the ant's house. The CBC, interrupting an Inuit cultural festival special from Nunavut with breaking news, broadcasts them singing "We Shall Overcome."

Sven Robinson rants in an interview with Pamela Wallin that the ant has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share".

In response to polls, the Liberal Government drafts the Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination Act, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant's taxes are reassessed, and he is also fined for failing to hire grasshoppers as helpers.

Without enough money to pay both the fine and his newly imposed retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The ant moves to the US, and starts a successful agribiz company.

The CBC later shows the now fat grasshopper finishing up the last of the ant's food, though Spring is still months away, while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he hasn't bothered to maintain it.

Inadequate government funding is blamed, Roy Romanow is appointed to head a commission of enquiry that will cost $10,000,000.

The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug overdose, the Toronto Star blames it on the obvious failure of government to address the root causes of despair arising from social inequity.

The abandoned house is taken over by a gang of immigrant spiders, praised by the government for enriching Canada's multicultural diversity, who promptly terrorize the community.

THE END

[Cartman]

Sven Robinson rants in an interview with Pamela Wallin that the ant has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share".

You should have ended with Svend making off with her ring.

The abandoned house is taken over by a gang of immigrant spiders, praised by the government for enriching Canada's multicultural diversity, who promptly terrorize the community.

I don't think I would have said that.

[Guest eureka]

The ant and the grasshopper each perform according to the dictates of nature, of a higher authority than George Bush or Harper.

The grasshopper also works hard to the limits of its natural capacity and to its genetic predisposition. But, you do have a point. The grasshopper is a typical "right winger" in your analogy: carousing and stocking its wine cellar on the backs of the poor ants who know no better than to slave away like the general populace to sustain the "right" in the style to which they think they have an inalienable right.