F-35 Purchase

[bush_cheney2004]

Did you watch 60 minutes last night? Seems the F-22 has some real oxygen problems and it has gotten so bad the pilots are now speaking out to the media about it.

That's OK....Canada can't buy the F-22...at any price. This should make you happy.

[punked]

That's OK....Canada can't buy the F-22...at any price. This should make you happy.

Considering it was to costly for you guys even I guess I should. Was it made of gold?

Edit. Actually reading about he F-22 it wasn't really that much more then the f-35 but I guess when the F-35 was first announced it was only going to cost 35 million a plane instead of somewhere in the 75-150 million that we now know now. My have times changed.

Edited May 7, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

That is the problem isn't it? I am a well read intelligent average Canada and my interest lies in social policy. Why can't our government communicate this information instead of acting like they are hiding something.

At this time I will jump in and point out Australia's national debt is double that of our country and they have 10 million people less then we do. I don't think we can afford to run our country their way. That is the problem with buying things because you want them instead of because you can afford them. It hurts a country.

Perhaps I didn’t make my point clear, the Australians whom spend a similar amount on defence as us (+/- a few billion on a given year) get more value for their money spent in terms of capabilities garnered…..in other words, what are we doing wrong and how much of our defence budget could be spent more efficiently, thus fulfilling our requirements without additional costs outside our current spending envelope……many of our problems were outlined in General Leslie’s report last year.

[Guest Derek L]

Considering it was to costly for you guys even I guess I should. Was it made of gold?

Worse....a lot of titanium....

[Guest Derek L]

Considering it was to costly for you guys even I guess I should. Was it made of gold?

Edit. Actually reading about he F-22 it wasn't really that much more then the f-35 but I guess when the F-35 was first announced it was only going to cost 35 million a plane instead of somewhere in the 75-150 million that we now know now. My have times changed.

No, the F-22, without support, costed near double the more expensive F-35C….

[punked]

Perhaps I didn’t make my point clear, the Australians whom spend a similar amount on defence as us (+/- a few billion on a given year) get more value for their money spent in terms of capabilities garnered…..in other words, what are we doing wrong and how much of our defence budget could be spent more efficiently, thus fulfilling our requirements without additional costs outside our current spending envelope……many of our problems were outlined in General Leslie’s report last year.

They spend around 25% more as a percent GDP then we do. That is a lot. If we wanted to increase our military budget by 25% we would be spending around 6 Billion dollars more a year on our defense. Total expenses don't really matter what matters is what you spend as a percentage of why your country generates. It explains why they have double our national debt though.

Edited May 8, 2012 by punked

[punked]

No, the F-22, without support, costed near double the more expensive F-35C….

Even though we are on different sides of this argument Derek I do feel I am learning a lot so please can explain why it is near double? I know it is a twin engine fighter but I can't understand why it would cost double.

[bush_cheney2004]

Considering it was to costly for you guys even I guess I should. Was it made of gold?

No...carbon fiber composites, titanium, thermoplastics, and aluminum. Gold would not be very stealthy. Japan wanted to buy them very badly, at any cost, but sometimes we have to just say no to nations who can't design and build their own fighter aircraft!

[punked]

No...carbon fiber composites, titanium, thermoplastics, and aluminum. Gold would not be very stealthy. Japan wanted to buy them very badly, at any cost, but sometimes we have to just say no to nations who can't design and build their own fighter aircraft!

Yes I read that earlier today.

[Guest Derek L]

They spend around 25% more as a percent GDP then we do. That is a lot. If we wanted to increase our military budget by 25% we would be spending around 6 Billion dollars more a year on our defense.

That’s as a percentage of their GDP, not actual dollars spent, though the Australians are not without waste (Sea Sprite, used Newport LST etc) we (DND) are by far the worse offenders in terms waste, their ~20+ billion gets them further then our ~20+ billion….

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes I read that earlier today.

...but enough about the USA and its deployed 5th Gen air superiority fighter....let's get back to Canada's soap opera about buying another American aircraft.

[punked]

...but enough about the USA and its deployed 5th Gen air superiority fighter....let's get back to Canada's soap opera about buying another American aircraft.

Or not buying as the case may be. Our government loves to point out no papers are signed yet and until they are anything can happen.

[Guest Derek L]

Even though we are on different sides of this argument Derek I do feel I am learning a lot so please can explain why it is near double? I know it is a twin engine fighter but I can't understand why it would cost double.

The Reader’s digest and more apt statement would be why the F-35 won’t cost as much as the F-22, which would be since much of the technology that had to be developed for the earlier YF-22 (and YF-23) programs was completely new technology, where as the Lockheed (specifically) X-35 and the Boeing X-32 were able to expand on much of what was developed for the eventual F-22 as opposed start with a blank sheet of paper…….

[punked]

That’s as a percentage of their GDP, not actual dollars spent, though the Australians are not without waste (Sea Sprite, used Newport LST etc) we (DND) are by far the worse offenders in terms waste, their ~20+ billion gets them further then our ~20+ billion….

I would not be able to speak on that. If true we should look to their model and copy it, although there are a number of factors we would have to discus for me to actually form an opinion on this.

[punked]

The Reader’s digest and more apt statement would be why the F-35 won’t cost as much as the F-22, which would be since much of the technology that had to be developed for the earlier YF-22 (and YF-23) programs was completely new technology, where as the Lockheed (specifically) X-35 and the Boeing X-32 were able to expand on much of what was developed for the eventual F-22 as opposed start with a blank sheet of paper…….

I don't see how that effects the cost of the F-22 vs F-35 from this point onward though.

[bush_cheney2004]

Or not buying as the case may be. Our government loves to point out no papers are signed yet and until they are anything can happen.

That's OK...we already have your Tier 3 admission fee and it is not refundable....kinda like that $1 billion in softwood lumber duty you guys gave up to President Bush, remember?

[punked]

That's OK...we already have your Tier 3 admission fee and it is not refundable....kinda like that $1 billion in softwood lumber duty you guys gave up to President Bush, remember?

Well now, you are just trying to get me going.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't see how that effects the cost of the F-22 vs F-35 from this point onward though.

The F-22 will likely cost more in constant dollars because R&D was spread over fewer production aircraft.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well now, you are just trying to get me going.

Is it working? Canada has painted itself into a corner...gotta buy something!

[punked]

The F-22 will likely cost more in constant dollars because R&D was spread over fewer production aircraft.

But if more were ordered instead of the F-35 would this not bring production costs down to F-35 levels?

[Guest Derek L]

I would not be able to speak on that. If true we should look to their model and copy it, although there are a number of factors we would have to discus for me to actually form an opinion on this.

Namely, the Australians have a streamlined procurement process contrasted with ours, fewer bases spread out over their sparsely populated country contrasted with us, and they have less bureaucracy (both civilian and military) plaguing their armed forces.

[bush_cheney2004]

But if more were ordered instead of the F-35 would this not bring production costs down to F-35 levels?

Probably not, as the production line and supply chain has been mothballed and would incur additional startup costs. Esteemed MLW member Derek L correctly points out that you can't just stop and start these kind of programs on a dime (I think it's called a dime in Canada too, right?).

Edited May 8, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

I don't see how that effects the cost of the F-22 vs F-35 from this point onward though.

The F-22 had very little technology to expand upon thus starting and developing technologies that hadn‘t been invented yet, were as the JSF aircraft were able to build upon the prior F-22/F23 programs.

[punked]

Is it working? Canada has painted itself into a corner...gotta buy something!

I know. Which is the real problem isn't it? We got to buy something but where is the line to buy something else?

[Guest Derek L]

But if more were ordered instead of the F-35 would this not bring production costs down to F-35 levels?

No where as close, since unlike the F-35, the F-22 can’t fulfill the requirements of a carrier capable and STOVL aircraft.