F-35 Purchase

[punked]

Like I said to Waldo, you can rely upon Blogs and the MSM and I’ll gladly rely upon the militaries and Governments purchasing the F-35 and the manufacturer, Lockheed for the figures and estimates…..time will indeed tell who was correct.

You (and others) and the Opposition wish to separate pepper from gnat shit over already sunk costs that we’re already paying for with our current Hornet fleet, and would pay regardless of the aircraft we choose for political purposes………I can almost accept a pass for the NDP since they’ve never led a Federal Government (or most members served in the military) and as such, have never fully understood the complexities of funding and operating a modern military, but the Liberals are just plain disingenuous over the entire discussion.

My question for you is there is price that the F-35 gets to that you refuse to fight for it? If there is in ceiling we really are fighting a battle no one can win aren't we?

[cybercoma]

Like I said to Waldo, you can rely upon Blogs and the MSM and I’ll gladly rely upon the militaries and Governments purchasing the F-35 and the manufacturer, Lockheed for the figures and estimates…..time will indeed tell who was correct.

You (and others) and the Opposition wish to separate pepper from gnat shit over already sunk costs that we’re already paying for with our current Hornet fleet, and would pay regardless of the aircraft we choose for political purposes………I can almost accept a pass for the NDP since they’ve never led a Federal Government (or most members served in the military) and as such, have never fully understood the complexities of funding and operating a modern military, but the Liberals are just plain disingenuous over the entire discussion.

Derek, how can you possibly still be clueless about what the opposition's issue is with the F-35 deal? Give me a break.

[cybercoma]

Seriously... how many times can it be said that it's not about the damn jets themselves before you stop going on and on ad nauseum about how great the F-35 is?

[Guest Derek L]

My question for you is there is price that the F-35 gets to that you refuse to fight for it? If there is in ceiling we really are fighting a battle no one can win aren't we?

I would be comfortable with a final price tag, such as the current figures, that would easily fit within the current Department of National Defence’s budgeted envelope……..If cost did increase and well maintaining DND’s current budget, I’d be in favour of cutting other capabilities/expenditures within the department, to counter any unforeseen costs to ensure the CF-35.

* I've outlined earlier in other threads what I’d cut within DND regardless of F-35 costs.

[Guest Derek L]

Derek, how can you possibly still be clueless about what the opposition's issue is with the F-35 deal? Give me a break.

So you’d be in favour of an NDP Government purchasing the F-35?

[punked]

There is false argument coming from Derek when he pretends that the F-35 would cost the same to operate as the f-18. We already know from budget numbers the F-35 will cost the US twice as much to operate as the F-16 so it stands to reason this plane will cost more to operate then say more F-18s. So that argument falls apart when we actually look at it but Derek will continue to make it.

[Guest Derek L]

There is false argument coming from Derek when he pretends that the F-35 would cost the same to operate as the f-18. We already know from budget numbers the F-35 will cost the US twice as much to operate as the F-16 so it stands to reason this plane will cost more to operate then say more F-18s. So that argument falls apart when we actually look at it but Derek will continue to make it.

Again your reference tow US numbers have no added realization with Canada’s

Unlike our current Hornets we won’t be operating a conversion squadron and the same number of aircraft, hence the equalization of the numbers……….Now if we did purchase a Super Hornet, we’d have to purchase greater numbers to count for possible attrition over the life of the aircraft since the SH line will close in several years, as we’d also have to purchase enough aircraft to operate a conversion squadron, since after the USN start retiring their Super Hornets, we’d no longer have the option (like is planned with the F-35) of having our pilots trained within the United States.

[cybercoma]

So you’d be in favour of an NDP Government purchasing the F-35?

I don't know, since the entire process was corrupt from the beginning. If there was a proper statement of requirements and open competition then I would support whatever jet they procured. I don't give a crap about all the technical specs and details about the jets. I care that the Statement of Requirements was not completed properly and the bidding process was not run because all the paperwork was doctored up. I care that the government was keeping two sets of numbers, so they could low-ball parliament and the Canadian public during an election, even though the regulations are that full life-cycle costs are what is to be used for decision-making purposes. Whether it was done before or not is not the point. You can run a red light every morning on your way to work and the cop isn't going to give a crap when he busts you if you say "but this is the way I've always driven to work." My issue is with a sitting government outright misleading parliament and the public not on a minor purchase, but on a purchase worth several billions of dollars. If you're going to follow the rules right to the letter on anything, that's the time to do it.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't know, since the entire process was corrupt from the beginning. If there was a proper statement of requirements and open competition then I would support whatever jet they procured. I don't give a crap about all the technical specs and details about the jets. I care that the Statement of Requirements was not completed properly and the bidding process was not run because all the paperwork was doctored up. I care that the government was keeping two sets of numbers, so they could low-ball parliament and the Canadian public during an election, even though the regulations are that full life-cycle costs are what is to be used for decision-making purposes. Whether it was done before or not is not the point. You can run a red light every morning on your way to work and the cop isn't going to give a crap when he busts you if you say "but this is the way I've always driven to work." My issue is with a sitting government outright misleading parliament and the public not on a minor purchase, but on a purchase worth several billions of dollars. If you're going to follow the rules right to the letter on anything, that's the time to do it.

So since as mentioned in the AG’s report that it’s now past the point to run a competition, all competitions in which the F-35 has been involved in it has won, and the production lines of most 4th generation aircraft will be closing within the next several years and the earliest the NDP could form Government is 2015, what would you have said NDP Government do circa 2015?

[punked]

Again your reference tow US numbers have no added realization with Canada’s

Unlike our current Hornets we won’t be operating a conversion squadron and the same number of aircraft, hence the equalization of the numbers……….Now if we did purchase a Super Hornet, we’d have to purchase greater numbers to count for possible attrition over the life of the aircraft since the SH line will close in several years, as we’d also have to purchase enough aircraft to operate a conversion squadron, since after the USN start retiring their Super Hornets, we’d no longer have the option (like is planned with the F-35) of having our pilots trained within the United States.

And what if we went with the Eurofighter? What are the cost associated with that? Gee for the life of me I can't find where we compare the Eurofighter, the F-18, the F-35 and alternatives to what our needs are. If only someone in the government had the for sight to suggest that they did an Open and transparent procurement we wouldn't be having this fight. Canadians could then be happy with our purchase and the government wouldn't look like a bunch of liars.

Oh well here we are and just because the government doesn't want it, questions still need to be asked.

[punked]

So since as mentioned in the AG’s report that it’s now past the point to run a competition, all competitions in which the F-35 has been involved in it has won, and the production lines of most 4th generation aircraft will be closing within the next several years and the earliest the NDP could form Government is 2015, what would you have said NDP Government do circa 2015?

If that was the governments plane wait until scraping the plane means our armed forces would be crippled to release all the documents then they deserved to be kicked out. That is some shady shady way for a government to operate to ransom the lives of our service men and women, and say "its to late now we waited everyone out on this one now there is only one option on the table anyway".

[Guest Derek L]

And what if we went with the Eurofighter? What are the cost associated with that? Gee for the life of me I can't find where we compare the Eurofighter, the F-18, the F-35 and alternatives to what our needs are. If only someone in the government had the for sight to suggest that they did an Open and transparent procurement we wouldn't be having this fight. Canadians could then be happy with our purchase and the government wouldn't look like a bunch of liars.

Oh well here we are and just because the government doesn't want it, questions still need to be asked.

Both the Eurofighter, and Rafale are a generation behind and cost just as much (or more) then the F-35 and with European protectionism we’d see little economic benefit……..And the Super Hornet, aside from it’s production ceasing in several years, the US Government has also citied that they won’t fund any future upgrades to the airframe………Remember the Australians paid 6.6 billion (with support) for 24 Super Hornets….

[Guest Derek L]

If that was the governments plane wait until scraping the plane means our armed forces would be crippled to release all the documents then they deserved to be kicked out. That is some shady shady way for a government to operate to ransom the lives of our service men and women, and say "its to late now we waited everyone out on this one now there is only one option on the table anyway".

The service men and women of our Air Force have stated they require the F-35 over all others. I’m glad you appear to take their interests into account, so why not put partisan politics aside and support the purchase of equipment that they need?

[bush_cheney2004]

..And the Super Hornet, aside from it’s production ceasing in several years, the US Government has also citied that they won’t fund any future upgrades to the airframe………Remember the Australians paid 6.6 billion (with support) for 24 Super Hornets….

Yep...the Super Bug only exists because the US canceled it's A-12 Avenger program in the early 90's. The A-12's engines live on in the F-18 E/F/G as an F414 variant of the F404. Super Hornets were a stop gap measure that will be filled by the F-35.

Canada is going to run out of choices...again.

[DogOnPorch]

That A-12 was straight out of 'Secrets of the Luftwaffe'. Would have bbeen a super cool ride.

[Guest Derek L]

Yep...the Super Bug only exists because the US canceled it's A-12 Avenger program in the early 90's. The A-12's engines live on in the F-18 E/F/G as an F414 variant of the F404. Super Hornets were a stop gap measure that will be filled by the F-35.

Canada is going tohas run out of choices...again.

Fixed that for you

But what would one expect when a nation waits until block obsolescence has set in……….I’m forced to laugh when they question DND’s requirements………..I should think they’d be rather clear.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

That A-12 was straight out of 'Secrets of the Luftwaffe'. Would have bbeen a super cool ride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqFi6Pr8h9M

[DogOnPorch]

Yup...and it would have only took-up the same room as an A-6 once parked. Pretty darn cool. We haven't seen the last of that concept.

[Guest Derek L]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqFi6Pr8h9M

For pure nostalgia and cost (and grace), the proposed A-6F probably would have been sufficient till slightly past present………I’d wonder how a turbofan Intruder would have compared to the Super Hornet in Iraq and Afghanistan? Whidbey Island is only a short hop from Pat Bay.....

[bush_cheney2004]

Yup...and it would have only took-up the same room as an A-6 once parked. Pretty darn cool. We haven't seen the last of that concept.

...and it would have been a much better bomb truck than the F-18 E/F, seen here by some as a viable alternative to the F-35, even though it was never intended to be a long term solution. The U.S. Navy wants stealth aircraft too!

Canada can spend its money twice....first with Boeing...then back to LockMart.

[DogOnPorch]

...and it would have been a much better bomb truck than the F-18 E/F, seen here by some as a viable alternative to the F-35, even though it was never intended to be a long term solution. The U.S. Navy wants stealth aircraft too!

Canada can spend its money twice....first with Boeing...then back to LockMart.

If we could buy our fighters at WalMart we would.

Shopper 1: Hmmmm...buy one get one free J-20.

Shopper 2: Look!! MiG-21s for 99 cents!

[cybercoma]

Both the Eurofighter, and Rafale are a generation behind

I'm so sick of hearing this. Fifth generation is not a requirement. It's a feature. What requirement is met by that feature?

[cybercoma]

The service men and women of our Air Force have stated they require the F-35

Again. The F-35 is not a requirement. It's a piece of equipment meant to meet specific requirements.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm so sick of hearing this. Fifth generation is not a requirement. It's a feature. What requirement is met by that feature?

[bush_cheney2004]

:D