F-35 Purchase

[punked]

Then how do you explain the NDP double standard? For the Ships its OK to use the old accounting practice while for the F-35's we MUST use the new accounting practices. You say the conservatives lied, what they did was give you the exact same accounting formula that was used to buy the ships then you were satisfied with it, now you are not.

The accounting has been done on both Signals however the NDP wanted to see the books on the planes and the government hid them. The new accounting practices have been done, the government was just lying when they said it hadn't.

[Guest Derek L]

Then how do you explain the NDP double standard? For the Ships its OK to use the old accounting practice while for the F-35's we MUST use the new accounting practices. You say the conservatives lied, what they did was give you the exact same accounting formula that was used to buy the ships then you were satisfied with it, now you are not.

You don’t see the difference? We’re going to spend tens of billions of dollars and keep ~20k union positions working, fulltime for a generation, on both coasts, and they happen to be in NDP ridings…..Why would they care about that?

Don’t tell them though, F-35 components are all ready being built in ridings across Canada (Some even NDP ridings)……..

[cybercoma]

Then how do you explain the NDP double standard? For the Ships its OK to use the old accounting practice while for the F-35's we MUST use the new accounting practices. You say the conservatives lied, what they did was give you the exact same accounting formula that was used to buy the ships then you were satisfied with it, now you are not.

I know it's tough for you to understand and it has only been said about 12 dozen times in this thread and others, but it's about the Harper Government lying to parliament. It's about them concealing costs when asked to produce them. Your argument is like saying, "I run this red light every day. Why am I getting a ticket now?"

[Wild Bill]

Why would I do that?

Because that is the logical outcome of your argument, CC! You have given no alternative that would work!

So, if we followed your opinion, we would have no useful air force at all. Maybe a token showing of useless planes as a symbolic gesture. That would be it!

Since this seems to many of us to be so obvious that you yourself must be aware of it, the only possible explanation must be that you have a "hidden agenda" of ensuring we have no effective air force at all!

Edited April 15, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Signals.Cpl]

The accounting has been done on both Signals however the NDP wanted to see the books on the planes and the government hid them. The new accounting practices have been done, the government was just lying when they said it hadn't.

You still find nothing wrong that the Conservatives used the same accounting for the ships though. Seems to me the double standard is coming out more and more. As I've said before, You can't have it both ways, be happy with the ships and the fact that salary and operating costs were not included, and be angry with the F-35's because salary and operating costs were not included.

[cybercoma]

Don’t tell them though, F-35 components are all ready being built in ridings across Canada (Some even NDP ridings)……..

Are they? Because the auditor general said the benefits to Canadian industry were grossly overstated.

[cybercoma]

Because that is the logical outcome of your argument, CC! You have given no alternative that would work!

So, if we followed your opinion, we would have no useful air force at all. Maybe a token showing of useless planes as a symbolic gesture. That would be it!

If we followed my opinion that the federal government should be accountable to parliament, then we would have no air force? Riiight.

[cybercoma]

You still find nothing wrong that the Conservatives used the same accounting for the ships though.

Did the Conservatives lie to parliament about the ships?

[punked]

You don’t see the difference? We’re going to spend tens of billions of dollars and keep ~20k union positions working, fulltime for a generation, on both coasts, and they happen to be in NDP ridings…..Why would they care about that?

Don’t tell them though, F-35 components are all ready being built in ridings across Canada (Some even NDP ridings)……..

Halifax West were the NS Shipyard is, is in a Liberal ridding just so you know. On the West coast I am unsure where the Shipyard is but it might be the Green parties.

[Guest Derek L]

Not even remotely close to the same extent that Canadians and Canadian companies will benefit from the ship contract. Then again, I'm not entirely sure either since Harper's Government lied to parliament.

How's that? The Unions told the NDP as much?

So trade workers building three dozen ships, over 30 years, at the estimated cost of tens of billions of taxpayer dollars is ok, but trade workers building components for thousands of aircraft, over 30 years, at a fraction of the cost, is a bad thing?

You chastise the Government over the F-35 program at ~25 billion, but trust them with a shipbuilding program, when using the same accounting methods, will be in the hundreds of billions of dollar range?

[jacee]

Then how do you explain the NDP double standard? For the Ships its OK to use the old accounting practice while for the F-35's we MUST use the new accounting practices. You say the conservatives lied, what they did was give you the exact same accounting formula that was used to buy the ships then you were satisfied with it, now you are not.

They didn't give the information to us that we asked for.

Yes that's political: They're accountable to us.

And the political damage is done.

Quibbling over it won't change that.

[Guest Derek L]

Are they? Because the auditor general said the benefits to Canadian industry were grossly overstated.

They are already being built.....In Quebec and here and BC.

[punked]

You still find nothing wrong that the Conservatives used the same accounting for the ships though. Seems to me the double standard is coming out more and more. As I've said before, You can't have it both ways, be happy with the ships and the fact that salary and operating costs were not included, and be angry with the F-35's because salary and operating costs were not included.

Don't remember anyone asking about the Ship accounting. Maybe you can go find me where they did. Again the Cons not the NDP are the ones who said the accounting didn't exist.

[punked]

They are already being built.....In Quebec and here and BC.

The contracts in Quebec and BC are quite small and have no guarantee to continue when the project goes full scale. We have spent more on the plane so far by about twice the as much as the small contracts in Quebec and BC are worth.

[Signals.Cpl]

I know it's tough for you to understand and it has only been said about 12 dozen times in this thread and others, but it's about the Harper Government lying to parliament. It's about them concealing costs when asked to produce them. Your argument is like saying, "I run this red light every day. Why am I getting a ticket now?"

Not quite that simple, you cannot support the ships, and keep quiet about them and then cry when the F-35 used the same accounting. Deep down you know why the NDP was happy with the deal for the ships, because it brought jobs to their ridings so Mr. Layton did not want to lodge a complaint, while now there is not so much as stake for NDP ridings and you can twist the truth all you want as a cheap way to gather attention and an attempt to smear the conservatives for doing exactly what you approved of 2 years before. This just shows me that the NDP cannot be satisfied, if the Conservatives had stated the full price you would have found a whole new thing to be angry about. Its time to face the truth, the NDP is not the ruling party and it likely will not get a chance to be the ruling party for a few more years, in the mean time look at whats better for Canada.

[Signals.Cpl]

Don't remember anyone asking about the Ship accounting. Maybe you can go find me where they did. Again the Cons not the NDP are the ones who said the accounting didn't exist.

So whats stoping you from going back and asking about it? This is a non issue and I hope that the Canadian public see through this publicity stunt.

[punked]

What are you talking about. It is clear now DND does life time cycle accounting (which Harper said they didn't). The opposition asked for these life cycle costs from the government for the Planes and never got them after being lied to. What don't you understand. The opposition does not have to ask for the things you want them to, they need to ask for the things they think their constituents want. In this case they thought their constituents wanted to know more about the costs of the planes. Harper lied and said the Canadian government doesn't do that accounting.

[Guest Derek L]

Halifax West were the NS Shipyard is, is in a Liberal ridding just so you know. On the West coast I am unsure where the Shipyard is but it might be the Green parties.

Have you ever been to Halifax? The Shipyard is very much so in the Harbour……….As for the left coast, Washington Marne Group’s yards in Victoria are in the Juan de Fuca riding, and here in the lower mainland, across the inlet from Vancouver-East and the two Burnaby ridings.

[Signals.Cpl]

What are you talking about. It is clear now DND does life time cycle accounting (which Harper said they didn't). The opposition asked for these life cycle costs from the government for the Planes and never got them after being lied to. What don't you understand. The opposition does not have to ask for the things you want them to, they need to ask for the things they think their constituents want. In this case they thought their constituents wanted to know more about the costs of the planes. Harper lied and said the Canadian government doesn't do that accounting.

That does not explain where your anger is about the accounting for the ships? We have come to the conclusion that the 11 billion dollars is irrelevant since those same requirements the NDP feels no need to put in the NSPS.

All I have to say is, if the Conservatives were to come out and say that the projects upgrades and maintenance would be given to a Quebec company we would not have this problem as the NDP will quickly give up in order not to alienate their base of support in Quebec.

[Guest Derek L]

The contracts in Quebec and BC are quite small and have no guarantee to continue when the project goes full scale. We have spent more on the plane so far by about twice the as much as the small contracts in Quebec and BC are worth.

No guarantee? They most certainly are, that’s why we signed the MOU……Now if we left it and had a “fighter track meet” as per the NDP, we’d most certainly lose that guarantee…….What does the NDP have against our aerospace workers?

[Signals.Cpl]

What are you talking about. It is clear now DND does life time cycle accounting (which Harper said they didn't).

The DND as well makes just estimates, the Military cannot predict where the government will deploy the CF nor can it predict how many if any of the aircraft will be in service in 20 years. If you want the true cost, its 14billion if you want an estimate its 25 billion.

[punked]

Have you ever been to Halifax? The Shipyard is very much so in the Harbour……….As for the left coast, Washington Marne Group’s yards in Victoria are in the Juan de Fuca riding, and here in the lower mainland, across the inlet from Vancouver-East and the two Burnaby ridings.

I always thought it was in the Basin.

[Signals.Cpl]

Two bears walk in to a forest:

First bear: Lets beat up the rabbit over there.

Second Bear: We cant just beat him up for no reason.

First Bear: Well he is not wearing a hat thats a reason

Second Bear: Ok.

So they beat up the rabbit and then tell him why they beat him up and leave.

One week later both bears walk back in to the same forest:

First bear: Lets beat up the rabbit over there.

Second Bear: We cant just beat him up for no reason.

First Bear: Well he is wearing a hat thats a reason

Second Bear: Ok.

So they beat up the rabbit and then tell him why they beat him up and then leave.

When the NDP want to attack the Conservatives the above is pretty much the guideline:

If the conservatives are doing xyz attack them for doing xyz, if the Conservatives are not doing xyz then attack them for not doing xyz.

[punked]

No guarantee? They most certainly are, that’s why we signed the MOU……Now if we left it and had a “fighter track meet” as per the NDP, we’d most certainly lose that guarantee…….What does the NDP have against our aerospace workers?

No signing the MOU gave us the right to bid on the work.

[punked]

The DND as well makes just estimates, the Military cannot predict where the government will deploy the CF nor can it predict how many if any of the aircraft will be in service in 20 years. If you want the true cost, its 14billion if you want an estimate its 25 billion.

They can predict how long they will be in the air for and what costs are associated with those flying hours. If the government decides to send them somewhere in the world to operate those flying hours that cost isn't associated with the plane it is associated with the mission. I don't think you understand what life cycle costing is by the way yo talk.