F-35 Purchase

[Signals.Cpl]

Which document? Are you suggesting that youve provided the above link, I quoted from, knowing it has questionable data?

Or is that once the data you provide to support your argument has in fact proved the inverse, you question its utility?

This is like trying to nail Jello to the wall…….

He went to wikipedia, and grabed their evidence without reading it. He cannot tell you which page it is on or wether it is even on there.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Signals.Cpl

[Guest Derek L]

Here you go have fun reading the newest numbers.

http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120210-115.pdf

I already read it......Those be the costs of LRIP aircraft……….Canada isn’t buying any. But we will buy production aircraft, with the unit costs provided by you from the link from four months ago.

[punked]

You infer that it includes salaries and operating cost, but it does not state so.

That is what full life cycle costs mean. The costs of the full life cycle which includes operation costs.

[punked]

I already read it......Those be the costs of LRIP aircraft……….Canada isn’t buying any. But we will buy production aircraft, with the unit costs provided by you from the link from four months ago.

Again I want an airplane that can get off the ground and has an engine and you don't. I want a plane that has weapons systems and software and you don't.

Edited April 9, 2012 by punked

[cybercoma]

Again I want an airplane that can get off the ground and has an engine and you don't. I want a plane that has weapons systems and software and you don't.

I couldn't possibly care less about the plane. I want a government that shows that they're fully accountable to parliament.

[Guest Derek L]

Again I want an airplane that can get off the ground and has an engine and you don't. I want a plane that has weapons systems and software and you don't.

No, I want a production aircraft, with all the bells and whistles, with a unit flyaway cost of 65-75 million per copy, as per the four month old link you provided……….What I don’t want, is to pay for the development of the program like the US and UK……..

Why do you keep referring to aircraft purchased during the development stage as some magic bullet?

[punked]

I couldn't possibly care less about the plane. I want a government that shows that they're fully accountable to parliament.

I am just pointing out why Derek's numbers are so low. There is no way the f-35 is going to come in the price range of the super hornet no matter how much he really wants to believe it.

[bush_cheney2004]

I posted the source it was from the US airforce budget and predictions form this year. Have fun going to change those numbers.

Wait...now you are arguing using US Air Force budgets and projected costs? But those are for the Americans, not Canada. Why are you using "American style" numbers?

[Guest Derek L]

I couldn't possibly care less about the plane. I want a government that shows that they're fully accountable to parliament.

Accountable? The inherent costs of operating a fast jet fleet have been known to Governments (PC/LPC/CPC) for decades.

[punked]

No, I want a production aircraft, with all the bells and whistles, with a unit flyaway cost of 65-75 million per copy, as per the four month old link you provided……….What I don’t want, is to pay for the development of the program like the US and UK……..

Why do you keep referring to aircraft purchased during the development stage as some magic bullet?

Yah you might want to read past page 61 because it goes to estimate the "other costs" of the plane like you know having an engine which costs 10-30 million per aircraft, weapons systems, the software of the aircraft....etc. You really want to buy a plane with out an engine? You think we can just build one ourself do you?

[Signals.Cpl]

That is what full life cycle costs mean. The costs of the full life cycle which includes operation costs.

You know what they say about assuming.

[punked]

Wait...now you are arguing using US Air Force budgets and projected costs? But those are for the Americans, not Canada. Why are you using "American style" numbers?

Like it or not you guys at least tell your public how much stuff costs.

[Guest Derek L]

I am just pointing out why Derek's numbers are so low. There is no way the f-35 is going to come in the price range of the super hornet no matter how much he really wants to believe it.

Who is going to be incurring the costs of Super Hornet (or insert any other 4 gen aircraft) upgrades into the 2030s?

[Signals.Cpl]

Wait...now you are arguing using US Air Force budgets and projected costs? But those are for the Americans, not Canada. Why are you using "American style" numbers?

He has no argument so he is pulling on straws.

[punked]

You know what they say about assuming.

I am not assuming that is what the term means.

[Guest Derek L]

Yah you might want to read past page 61 because it goes to estimate the "other costs" of the plane like you know having an engine which costs 10-30 million per aircraft, weapons systems, the software of the aircraft....etc. You really want to buy a plane with out an engine? You think we can just build one ourself do you?

Per your link, what will 65 aircraft, at 65-75 million per, total? How much would 9 billion budgeted translate into a per plane cost, based on a 65 plane purchase?

[Signals.Cpl]

I am not assuming that is what the term means.

And I bet I can find someone to disagree with you. If you want to prove something, make sure its black and white. Until its clearly written you are assuming.

[bush_cheney2004]

Like it or not you guys at least tell your public how much stuff costs.

Irrelevant to procurements in Canada. If this is your argument, then the exact same information was available to the AG and Parliament. Don't they know how to google?

[Shady]

Do you guys think we can just do without a military, and rely on NATO to protect us?

I think that's essentially what their policy would be. Regardless, this whole situation reminds me of the Sea King fabricated controversy by the left in the early 90s. As a result, the military had to continue using what were referred to as "flying coffins", and still do to this day. Nevermind that each helicopter needs 10 hours of maintenance for every 1 hour of flying, or that many Canadians lost their lives having to fly in those dilapidated helicopters. Lefties needed a campaign issue, so logic, reason, and Canadian lives be damned!

[punked]

And I bet I can find someone to disagree with you. If you want to prove something, make sure its black and white. Until its clearly written you are assuming.

Go for it. I am the only here posting any information anyway so I welcome it. I haven't run across it yet. Believe me if I did I would post it. Ask Newfoundlander who handed me a big old piece of humble pie yesterday when we went looking for some GDP numbers.

[punked]

Irrelevant to procurements in Canada. If this is your argument, then the exact same information was available to the AG and Parliament. Don't they know how to google?

Not operational costs those are what we are arguing about and they vary from country to country. Example it will cost you guys less to train your pilots because you will be doing it in house while we will be sending ours to you to train them so it will cost us more.

Edited April 9, 2012 by punked

[punked]

Per your link, what will 65 aircraft, at 65-75 million per, total? How much would 9 billion budgeted translate into a per plane cost, based on a 65 plane purchase?

Per my link that 65-75 million is for the airplane shell. You better go on to read past page 61 where they include the costs of the engine and weapons. I would like to buy a plane that can fly when or if we buy a plane not a 75 million dollar paper weight.

[Guest Derek L]

I think that's essentially what their policy would be. Regardless, this whole situation reminds me of the Sea King fabricated controversy by the left in the early 90s. As a result, the military had to continue using what were referred to as "flying coffins", and still do to this day. Nevermind that each helicopter needs 10 hours of maintenance for every 1 hour of flying, or that many Canadians lost their lives having to fly in those dilapidated helicopters. Lefties needed a campaign issue, so logic, reason, and Canadian lives be damned!

It’s closer to 30 hours………And like all aircraft, it’s a cumulative total of man hours, and though on the higher side, it’s comparable with many aircraft……..What is getting expensive and running in short supply is spare parts, since the largest previous operator (USN) has retired their fleet……

[bush_cheney2004]

Not operational costs those are what we are arguing about and they vary from country to country. Example it will cost you guys less to train your pilots because you will being it in house while we will be sending ours to you to train them so it will cost us more.

Actually, that was a purposeful strategy by Canada to reduce the number of trainer aircraft needed in Canada. Sending Canadian pilots to the US is a lot cheaper than buying more aircraft.

Another reason you can't use American budgets.....apples and oranges comparisons. Wanna try Russian PAK FA budgets too?

[punked]

Actually, that was a purposeful strategy by Canada to reduce the number of trainer aircraft needed in Canada. Sending Canadian pilots to the US is a lot cheaper than buying more aircraft.

Another reason you can't use American budgets.....apples and oranges comparisons. Wanna try Russian PAK FA budgets too?

I agree which is why the Canadian government should have done their operational costs and showed them to the public instead of hiding them. We agree BC American operational costs and Canadian ones will be different which is why we shouldn't be using yours we should have our own.