F-35 Purchase

[DogOnPorch]

Guess what we building to along with these superior Icebreakers? We are building superior war ships as well.

:lol:

[Signals.Cpl]

Yeah maybe you can follow the thread a little closer.

Opposition asks for costing. Government says costing does not exist. AG points out costing does exist. You pretend like it is not the law to do this type of costing. Pointed out to you how you are wrong. You twist and turn to try and find an argument you can win when the argument is entirely about the government lying to parliament and the people about the books.

Keep twisting and turning pretending we don't have a government of liar who do not respect our democracy.

Flip flop, no matter how you justify this the NDP cannot stand its ground. Its one thing when you accuse the conservatives of doing something wrong, its a whole other issue when you are actively supporting them doing the exact same thing for a different project. Simple as that can't pick and choose what or where this policy applies, if you want it to apply to the F-35 it should apply for the RCN and the CG ships as well.

[Signals.Cpl]

No one asked Harper for the costing of the Shipbuilding so he had no reason to lie. With the F-35s he did lie.

Grasping at straws?

[Guest Derek L]

No one asked Harper for the costing of the Shipbuilding so he had no reason to lie. With the F-35s he did lie.

Why didn’t the NDP question the shipbuilding program? Is it because the Ships will be built in NDP ridings?

[capricorn]

The only sane policy toward the military is purely defensive in nature. To do more is to is literally offensive and intended to harm. That cannot be the human policy anywhere on the planet.

Let me quote David Bercuson on the point you make.

"It is not pleasant for citizens of democracies to contemplate the real purpose of armed forces-to fight wars and to prepare to fight wars. Soldiers sometimes declare that their basic mission is to kill people and break things. This doesn't sound very nice, but it is fundamentally true. That Canadians are coming to realize this is also true. That they don't really like it and would prefer something a little more passive is a testament to their humanity."

Source: Legion Magazine, Jan-Feb 2011 (Eye on Defence p. 96)

[cybercoma]

Yeah maybe you can follow the thread a little closer.

He can't. He's already shown that he has no credibility by claiming the Auditor Generals don't know what they're talking about when it comes to accounting and he's also shown that he's completely incapable of following an argumenet. I would suggest just ignoring him because any response you give is going to be completely misunderstood or he'll just blow off the stuff he does understand as being "meaningless."

[cybercoma]

No one asked Harper for the costing of the Shipbuilding so he had no reason to lie. With the F-35s he did lie.

Not to mention the tax money for the ships is being dumped almost entirely back into Canada, while the F-35 program is going to primarily benefit Lockheed Martin.

[Signals.Cpl]

He can't. He's already shown that he has no credibility by claiming the Auditor Generals don't know what they're talking about when it comes to accounting and he's also shown that he's completely incapable of following an argumenet. I would suggest just ignoring him because any response you give is going to be completely misunderstood or he'll just blow off the stuff he does understand as being "meaningless."

You are such a comedian, are you going to be here all week?

[Signals.Cpl]

Not to mention the tax money for the ships is being dumped almost entirely back into Canada, while the F-35 program is going to primarily benefit Lockheed Martin.

Because Canada cannot design and build a sophisticated aircraft like the F-35 and make it affordable.

[cybercoma]

Because Canada cannot design and build a sophisticated aircraft like the F-35 and make it affordable.

So?

[DogOnPorch]

So?

Why not just say 'disband the air force' and be done with?

[Signals.Cpl]

So?

cybercoma, on 15 April 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Not to mention the tax money for the ships is being dumped almost entirely back into Canada, while the F-35 program is going to primarily benefit Lockheed Martin.

If Canada had the means to design and build the fighters while still making them affordable sure but since we don't and we need new fighters we have to go to other countries.

[Guest Derek L]

Not to mention the tax money for the ships is being dumped almost entirely back into NDP ridings within Canada, while the F-35 program is going to primarily benefit Lockheed Martin.

Fixed that for you.......

I’ve asked this prior, and no takers……..What’s better for Canadian Aerospace firms, building 65 aircraft over ~5 years or components of thousands of aircraft for ~30 years?

To say nothing of the fact that many of the subsystems of future Canadian ships will be outsourced and the system integration done by American and European defence companies…..

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Because Canada cannot design and build a sophisticated aircraft like the F-35 and make it affordable.

Bullshit of the most pure unadulterated variety. We can and my prediction is that we will build this in Canada. Why, because we are talking billions of dollars of investment in a military industrial complex that would benefit the nation. I am actually opposed to military spending in the first place but it is a necessary evil that must be expected. Until we change our political environment we are compelled to retain armed forces as a means of national defense.

[Guest Derek L]

Bullshit of the most pure unadulterated variety. We can and my prediction is that we will build this in Canada. Why, because we are talking billions of dollars of investment in a military industrial complex that would benefit the nation. I am actually opposed to military spending in the first place but it is a necessary evil that must be expected. Until we change our political environment we are compelled to retain armed forces as a means of national defense.

Sure we can, just like the Avro Arrow right?

[Signals.Cpl]

Bullshit of the most pure unadulterated variety. We can and my prediction is that we will build this in Canada. Why, because we are talking billions of dollars of investment in a military industrial complex that would benefit the nation. I am actually opposed to military spending in the first place but it is a necessary evil that must be expected. Until we change our political environment we are compelled to retain armed forces as a means of national defense.

1) I doubt that we will be building this aircraft in Canada, if you have a information about this that I haven't seen share and I will withdraw my statement.

2) What kind of military industrial complex? Building LAV's? Or the C-7s? just because we can build one thing does not necessarily mean we should attempt to build the other. Building 65 F-35's in Canada is not economical at all.

3)Changing OUR political environment as in Canada or the world?

[Wild Bill]

Bullshit of the most pure unadulterated variety. We can and my prediction is that we will build this in Canada. Why, because we are talking billions of dollars of investment in a military industrial complex that would benefit the nation. I am actually opposed to military spending in the first place but it is a necessary evil that must be expected. Until we change our political environment we are compelled to retain armed forces as a means of national defense.

We've covered this before, Jerry. Remember? I was the guy who used to sell electronic parts to buyers and engineers who had originally worked for A V Roe and the Arrow?

We are just starting from too far back. You can't build cars before you can build steel, for which you need to have built smelters, which were an advancement over blacksmith shops, who got their iron from miners, who had to have tools, which were build on previous designs.

We would be starting almost from standing in an open field!

When the Arrow was built we already had engineering and design departments. We had existing factories built to manufacture Lancasters. We had the infrastructure, both mechanical and human, all in place.

That's all gone, Jerry! We have a few branch plants building the odd part for someone else's planes. That's it.

You really think that if we are seeing such arguments about the money to buy some planes someone else has already designed and manufactured we could ever see a government spending the money to build the entire infrastructure of the necessary industry to build our own?

At least for the new ships we had some shipyards left!

Let it go, my friend. In true Canadian fashion, we threw it all the way in favour of a baby bonus or some such thing. As a nation we think we have no need to fear anyone with guns and take it for granted that we can spend all our dollars on butter.

Of course, if the butter folks turn out to be wrong then we're all screwed! I'm sure though that they would be quite capable of saving our asses if that should ever be the case!

[cybercoma]

Why not just say 'disband the air force' and be done with?

Why would I do that?

[cybercoma]

If Canada had the means to design and build the fighters while still making them affordable sure but since we don't and we need new fighters we have to go to other countries.

So?

[cybercoma]

Fixed that for you.......

I’ve asked this prior, and no takers……..What’s better for Canadian Aerospace firms, building 65 aircraft over ~5 years or components of thousands of aircraft for ~30 years?

To say nothing of the fact that many of the subsystems of future Canadian ships will be outsourced and the system integration done by American and European defence companies…..

So you think the shipbuilding has no benefits beyond those ridings?

[punked]

So you think the shipbuilding has no benefits beyond those ridings?

Well the spin off numbers are pretty easy to find.

http://shipsstarthere.ca/cont/Impact.pdf

Not to mention the NS government has changed the way they educate this year. They are going all in on teaching students who want to learn trades about trades to get them out of school faster and to come out more skilled. These are the people the west needs to grow so it will help them with their labor shortage and create a model for skilled education through out Canada. No more wielders from Scotland they can be Canadians getting those jobs.

Edited April 15, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

So you think the shipbuilding has no benefits beyond those ridings?

Sure it does, but we’re talking about taxpayers money…….We could purchase ships built in the United States, South Korea or Poland cheaper, but of course the unions wouldn’t like that

And you don’t think Canadian aerospace companies, in numerous ridings across the country, building F-35 components for the next 30 years won’t benefit?

[Signals.Cpl]

So you think the shipbuilding has no benefits beyond those ridings?

Then how do you explain the NDP double standard? For the Ships its OK to use the old accounting practice while for the F-35's we MUST use the new accounting practices. You say the conservatives lied, what they did was give you the exact same accounting formula that was used to buy the ships then you were satisfied with it, now you are not.

[cybercoma]

And you dont think Canadian aerospace companies, in numerous ridings across the country, building F-35 components for the next 30 years wont benefit?

Not even remotely close to the same extent that Canadians and Canadian companies will benefit from the ship contract. Then again, I'm not entirely sure either since Harper's Government lied to parliament.

Edited April 15, 2012 by cybercoma

[punked]

Sure it does, but we’re talking about taxpayers money…….We could purchase ships built in the United States, South Korea or Poland cheaper, but of course the unions wouldn’t like that

And you don’t think Canadian aerospace companies, in numerous ridings across the country, building F-35 components for the next 30 years won’t benefit?

Maybe we could maybe we couldn't. This isn't really about that though. It is about upgrading our shipbuilding facilities on both coasts so they can have the workers, and equipment to compete on the world stage with the US, South Korea, and Poland. Know how those countries became strong ship builders? By projects like this one. So we could spend the money in Canada creating Canadian jobs, the workers of the future, and an industry which Canada has been very good at. Or we MIGHT be able to spend a few dollars less to send our money outside our country and have no rewards. It is called an investment sometimes it takes money to make money.