Rebuilding the Liberal Brand

Newfoundlander · March 24, 2012

On par with all the other parties. As long as we are comparing the same governments to the same regional governments. It would be unfair to compare say NS to Alberta but if we compare NS governments to NB governments we would see the NDP is doing as well as the Conservatives.

Ok, I've heard this stuff about the NDP being able to balance a budget but it's one thing to balance a budget and another to grow the economy.

punked · March 24, 2012

Ok, I've heard this stuff about the NDP being able to balance a budget but it's one thing to balance a budget and another to grow the economy.

What about when your economic growth is tied to deficit spending like in Ontario? You ok with financing growth with a growing debt burden? It is all a numbers game and the NDP could grow the economy 10 times if they wanted to service it with mountains of debt. Let's not act like these two things are linked in someway Newfoundlander.

Again the NDP have a fine track record of Growth, MB and NS under the NDP were the ONLY PROVINCE not to go in recession during 2009. Hmmmmmmmm.

Newfoundlander · March 24, 2012

What about when your economic growth is tied to deficit spending like in Ontario? You ok with financing growth with a growing debt burden? It is all a numbers game and the NDP could grow the economy 10 times if they wanted to service it with mountains of debt. Let's not act like these two things are linked in someway Newfoundlander.

Again the NDP have a fine track record of Growth, MB and NS under the NDP were the ONLY PROVINCE not to go in recession during 2009. Hmmmmmmmm.

No need to get defensive, I just asked a question.

Evening Star · March 24, 2012

You just made that fact up. The NDP in NS is cutting taxes right now, in Manitoba they cut taxes, in Sask they cut taxes. Once you get a BB you can start looking at what you want to put money into or cut taxes. hey might raise business taxes (not on small Business they have a history of cutting those) and the top income bracket but outside of that they are not big taxers. Although the big money spends lots to send people like yourself that message.

MB and SK do have the highest income tax rates on high earners in English Canada though and have relatively high corporate taxes. I don't think there's any reason to deny that social democrats favour higher income taxes than neoliberals.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Evening Star

j44 · March 24, 2012

You just made that fact up. The NDP in NS is cutting taxes right now, in Manitoba they cut taxes, in Sask they cut taxes. Once you get a BB you can start looking at what you want to put money into or cut taxes. hey might raise business taxes (not on small Business they have a history of cutting those) and the top income bracket but outside of that they are not big taxers. Although the big money spends lots to send people like yourself that message.

Yeah once you raises taxes to balance the budget you can cut them down the road. That doesn't negate the fact that they were raised to begin with.

How did it make this up if you state in your comment that they raise business taxes, income taxes on the rich (that is still raising taxes however you feel about it). They also raised the provincial sales tax in NS. But yeah, other than all those taxes they dont raise taxes.

And yeah, the big money really influences people like me. Me being the guy that voted NDP in the last two elections.

punked · March 24, 2012

Yeah once you raises taxes to balance the budget you can cut them down the road. That doesn't negate the fact that they were raised to begin with.

How did it make this up if you state in your comment that they raise business taxes, income taxes on the rich (that is still raising taxes however you feel about it). They also raised the provincial sales tax in NS. But yeah, other than all those taxes they dont raise taxes.

And yeah, the big money really influences people like me. Me being the guy that voted NDP in the last two elections.

And cut taxes on Small business and and low income earners. That isn't raising taxes that is shifting taxes.

j44 · March 24, 2012

And cut taxes on Small business and and low income earners. That isn't raising taxes that is shifting taxes.

lol at shifting taxes. I never heard that before. They raise taxes.

Wild Bill · March 24, 2012

And cut taxes on Small business and and low income earners. That isn't raising taxes that is shifting taxes.

I've been hearing that line of crapola from politicians of all the parties all my life! What always happens is that taxes go up for EVERYBODY! They raise in the new area and somehow never get around to cutting it in the other! :lol:

Evening Star · March 25, 2012

Punked is right in this case though. The NDP dropped small business taxes all the way to 0 in MB and have been reducing them in NS too, while they increased corporate taxes and high-end income taxes. This is a matter of record. It might be the case that on the whole, they did increase total tax take/revenue. In fact, I would hope that this is the case. Still, it is true that the tax burden was shifted.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Evening Star

j44 · March 25, 2012

Punked is right in this case though. The NDP dropped small business taxes all the way to 0 in MB and have been reducing them in NS too, while they increased corporate taxes and high-end income taxes. This is a matter of record. It might be the case that on the whole, they did increase total tax take/revenue. In fact, I would hope that this is the case. Still, it is true that the tax burden was shifted.

Sales tax was increased in NS.

Bryan · March 25, 2012

Chretien's Liberals were fiscally conservative

No they were not. Stop with this ridiculous propaganda.

Bryan · March 25, 2012

in Manitoba they cut taxes

In Manitoba they are running massive deficits, burdened Crown corporations with further huge debts, and have more than doubled the welfare roles.

The local media didn't call the finance minister a Weapon of Math Destruction for nothing.

Smallc · March 25, 2012

In Manitoba they are running massive deficits,

On year, with most of the increase in the deficit caused by flood expenses. The rest of the increase? Lower revenues because of a ) the flood, and b ) a unexpected slowdown NA wide. Next year, there's no reason to think that the deficit won't be much closer to on track, below $500M, on it's way to elimination.

Besides, the Conservatives, last election, were going to spend more money, and cut taxes more.... :blink:

Edited March 25, 2012 by Smallc

cybercoma · March 25, 2012

No they were not. Stop with this ridiculous propaganda.

You can't have it both ways, Bryan. You can't argue on one hand that the Conservatives resurrected healthcare in Canada, due to the Liberal Party's cutbacks to health and social transfers, while saying that the Liberals were not fiscally conservative. They cutback, balanced the budget, and had surpluses.

Although, I can see how that would be confusing, as the Conservatives blew through the surplus and created some of the largest deficits in history. They increased the cabinet and senate, wasting even more of taxpayers money. So, blowing cash like it's going out of style seems to be the new definition of fiscally conservative.

Edited March 25, 2012 by cybercoma

Smallc · March 25, 2012

They increased the senate,

? They made constitutionally mandated appointments.

Newfoundlander · March 25, 2012

No they were not. Stop with this ridiculous propaganda.

How was Chretien not fiscally conservative?

Jack Weber · March 25, 2012

How was Chretien not fiscally conservative?

Because he was a Liberal and Bryan does'nt give his money to the Liberal party...

eyeball · March 25, 2012

I will never ever forgive the Liberals or the Conservatives for their hands in the destruction of our fisheries on the west coast. I hate them and wish them nothing but ill will and will be ululating in the streets should an asteroid ever crash into Ottawa.

If the other federal departments agencies and ministry's of Canada are even half as bad as DFO there is absolutely no hope for this country.

Take your province and head for the hills.

August1991 · March 25, 2012

Hey. Choose.

Are you a Harper Tory, or a Mulcair NDP?

dre · March 25, 2012

Hey. Choose.

Are you a Harper Tory, or a Mulcair NDP?

Anyone with even an ounce of pride would be ashamed to be associated with any of these parties.

People just hold their noses, and try to pick the least shitty one.

TheNewTeddy · March 25, 2012

The Liberals need to do a few things to win back power.

A - Realize that they will never win back Quebec. Sure the party can win 50%-1 of the seats in the province, but they'll never win the province again, at least, not for a long time. The Liberals need to accept that and focus in Ontario and, yes, the West to win their majorities.

B - Realize that it's not NDP voters and Seats they need to target. Even if every NDP seat went Liberal, we'd still have a Conservative majority. The Liberals need to target Conservative seats and voters to win again.

C - Realize that Harper's Conservatives occupy the same political position on the spectrum as Day's Alliance did. That Mulcair's NDP occupy the same space that Trudeau's Liberals once did. And realize that there is a huge open space where Clark's PC Party once stood. If the Liberals want to win again, they need to stop being a self-proclaimed "Progressive" party and start becoming a Centrist party

D - Realize that a strong NDP is here to stay. The NDP has always been able to pull off 30 seats in RoC when they need to, and I'd put their new Quebec floor at close to 10 or 15. This would put the NDP at 40 or so in every election for the next 2 or 3 decades, and with the Liberals stuck at 35, it's time we stop just trying to "overtake the NDP" and focus on winning back government itself.

E - Realize that the Martin-Chretien fight is over. Those who think it's not should leave the party, because all they are doing is damaging the party in a huge way.

Once the party decides to wake up and see that we are now the party of the "mushy middle" and are in the same position as the eternally 3rd-placed UK LibDems we can really tackle the issues that plague us. I fail to see a reason why we can not push both other parties down to 70 seats and win a majority; not only a majority, but one where neither opposition party can become the focus, and thus, have that endless string of majorities we've always dreamed of.

Newfoundlander · March 25, 2012

There's a big difference in winning the NDP's seats and winning their vote.

Bryan · March 25, 2012

How was Chretien not fiscally conservative?

How was he? He left ten of billions in spending obligations unpaid in order to post his fake "surplusses", which he then immediately spent on Liberal pet projects. All the while he was raiding other agencies like EI to the tune of several more tens of billions of dollars.

Smallc · March 25, 2012

How was he? He left ten of billions in spending obligations unpaid in order to post his fake "surplusses",

:lol: Nice revisionist history.

Bryan · March 25, 2012

Nice revisionist history.

Who's revising? Over $50B was raided from EI alone, and nearly that much was left unpaid in health, education, infrastructure, and defense obligations.

Try just not paying your mortgage, cashing out all of your RRSPs, and see if your bank thinks you're a good fiscal manager when you show then that you have a few dollars in your savings account.