Is Ontario getting "too much" from Confederation?

[TheNewTeddy]

I'm going to ask the moderators to move a few posts over.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=772975 last paragraph only

Why do so many Canadians (mostly bitter westerners) still have this ficticious belief that Ontario gets more than it gives to the federation?

"Ontario, with 39 per cent of the Canadian population, contributed 39 per cent to federal revenues, but benefited from only 34 per cent of federal spending--a gap worth about $12.3 billion or 2.1 per cent of Ontario’s GDP. The report concludes that this — among other factors — demonstrates the “perverse structure of Canadian fiscal federalism.”

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=772980

What a bizarre statement.

The West and particualry Alberta have been giving more than they get for about 40 years. You very rarely hear anybody blubbering about it in Alberta.

Ontario has a couple of shitty years and the whining is deafening, starting with the premier. Did he write the pathetic piece you linked to?

You're the bitter one.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=772987

I see more whining from westerners on news forums/articles than any other group.

Ontario is still a net contributor. Plain and simple.

Ontario spends less than every other province per person.

Ontario does not get more than it receives like many would have you believe.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=773080

"Ontario, with 39 per cent of the Canadian population, contributed 39 per cent to federal revenues, but benefited from only 34 per cent of federal spending--a gap worth about $12.3 billion or 2.1 per cent of Ontario’s GDP.

What a bizarre statement.

The West and particualry Alberta have been giving more than they get for about 40 years. You very rarely hear anybody blubbering about it in Alberta.

Ontario has a couple of shitty years and the whining is deafening, starting with the premier. Did he write the pathetic piece you linked to?

You're the bitter one.

The revenue number used to be closer to 45% before the "few bad years". I'm not sure how losing billions to the feds = the feds are losing billions to Ontario.

Ontario is a net contributor. So what?

Ontario chooses to spend less than other provinces on common social services. So what? Spend more if you want to.

Please, put your strawman away.

FEDERAL spending and revenue. Ontario chooses nothing.

What are you talking about federal spending for? Did you read the article and the chart?

Because

"Ontario, with 39 per cent of the Canadian population, contributed 39 per cent to federal revenues, but benefited from only 34 per cent of federal spending--a gap worth about $12.3 billion or 2.1 per cent of Ontario’s GDP.

And nobody seems to even notice.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=773088

I bet Ontario has just as many welfare people as it does EI and it wouldn't surprise me that Ontario has more unemployed than any other province. Although, The Martime Provinces could be a tied or close to it.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20529&view=findpost&p=773134

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/lfss01a-eng.htm

NL 12.9% unemployment

PE 10.8

NS 8.2

NB 10.1

QC 8.4

ON 7.6

MB 5.6

SK 5.0

AB 5.0

BC 6.9

http://www.ncw.gc.ca/[email protected]#faq7

NL - 4.8% - 24.7K on Welfare

NB - 5.1% - 38.4K

QC - 4.2% - 331.3K

ON - 3.7% - 474.2K

AB - 0.9% - 34.5K

BC - 1.2% - 54.3K

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/120217/t120217b1-eng.htm

NL 35.9K on EI

PE 8.3K

NS 31.5K

NB 33.6K

QC 160.3K

ON 157.5K

MB 12.4K

SK 9.7K

AB 28.9K

BC 59.7K

Really not that hard to check.

It seems the only single thing that everyone who thinks "Ontario is getting too much" has in common is that they are not aware of any of the facts.

PLEASE NOTE

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=20534

I've created a thread for discussion on weather Ontario gets screwed or not, as, we are hijacking the original thread (on Ontario as a province spending less per-capita than Alberta)

Edited March 14, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[TheNewTeddy]

I am an Ontario Separatist. 15% of Canadians seem to think Ontario gets more than it's fair share out of confederation, yet all these statistics prove otherwise. Why should Ontario stick around in a country where it's getting robbed blind, and people want to take away what little money it has left?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/03/09/19483526.html

Edited March 14, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[Newfoundlander]

I am an Ontario Separatist. 15% of Canadians seem to think Ontario gets more than it's fair share out of confederation, yet all these statistics prove otherwise. Why should Ontario stick around in a country where it's getting robbed blind, and people want to take away what little money it has left?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/03/09/19483526.html

Create a party.

[Moonbox]

While I think that Ontario has been getting shafted pretty bad for awhile now, and I despise the equalization program in the first place, nobody with a brain can honestly say they want Ontario to seperate.

[cybercoma]

I'm not quite sure you understand how transfer payments and federal programs work. Nor am I confident enough that the majority of Canadians know enough about it to actually make a sound and reasonable decision about whether or not Ontario or anyone other province "gets too much [or too little] from Confederation."

[TheNewTeddy]

Create a party.

I did. One guy joined. Then I quit.

I'm not quite sure you understand how transfer payments and federal programs work. Nor am I confident enough that the majority of Canadians know enough about it to actually make a sound and reasonable decision about whether or not Ontario or anyone other province "gets too much [or too little] from Confederation."

I understand transfers quite well, but have not delved into statistics about transfers.

While I think that Ontario has been getting shafted pretty bad for awhile now, and I despise the equalization program in the first place, nobody with a brain can honestly say they want Ontario to seperate.

I do but you are right it is a rare opinion.

Canada's foreign policy is, in short, Ontario's foreign policy, our "Culture" is Ontario's "Culture", and our language and way of thinking is again, that of Ontario. Look at all the provinces that use MLA, and yet, Ontario journalists are still quite liable to refer to MLA's from other provinces as, for example, "Alberta MPPs".

Ontario does "get" a lot of out of confederation in terms of these sort of intangibles. The other 9 provinces, like it or not, are "colonies" in a way.

I say that intangibles are not enough and that we'd be better off on our own, as a separate and independent country, ideally one that has a currency that's independent of the petrodollar (one that Quebec, I'm sure, would be happy to share with us) Canada works better as 4 countries. Ontario, Quebec, the West, and the Atlantic. After we get there, then, perhaps, we could form some EU-like union.

Edited March 14, 2012 by TheNewTeddy

[Boges]

I am an Ontario Separatist. 15% of Canadians seem to think Ontario gets more than it's fair share out of confederation, yet all these statistics prove otherwise. Why should Ontario stick around in a country where it's getting robbed blind, and people want to take away what little money it has left?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/03/09/19483526.html

Because we're broke as fuck and have an idiot as a premiere.

But at least 4-year-olds can go to school.

[Wild Bill]

Because we're broke as fuck and have an idiot as a premiere.

But at least 4-year-olds can go to school.

Not quite that bad yet, Boges, but I would agree that the McGuinty government seems to want to get us there!Certainly, they won't get many votes from the 60,000 racetrack industry workers that Dalton is throwing onto the EI rolls.

As the old blues song goes:

"Oh my green is lean and my coin is spent, I ain't busted but I'm badly bent!"

[TheNewTeddy]

I hate McGunity as well. The problem is his opposition is Rae mark 2 and Harris mark 2.

Ontario Elections have become a choice between 3 forms of suicide.

[Smallc]

they won't get many votes from the 60,000 racetrack industry workers that Dalton is throwing onto the EI rolls.

What a libertarian idea.

[g_bambino]

Canada works better as 4 countries. Ontario, Quebec, the West, and the Atlantic. After we get there, then, perhaps, we could form some EU-like union.

Is the EU really a model we want to emulate?

[Smallc]

Is the EU really a model we want to emulate?

It doesn't really work the way he says anyway. Manitoba, for example, has as much in common with Ontario (if not more) than it does with Alberta.

[g_bambino]

It doesn't really work the way he says anyway.

I'm not clear on what the major benefit would be, either. It often seems as though the EU is more centrally and worse governed than Canada; it has a massive and exceedingly complicated constitution, its parliament issues laws to which member-states are bound, and its government tries to micromanage everything right down to ensuring a common, EU-dictated, metric pint glass is used in all countries.

[fellowtraveller]

It doesn't really work the way he says anyway. Manitoba, for example, has as much in common with Ontario (if not more) than it does with Alberta.

Fiscally, Manitoba has more in common with Quebec.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm not clear on what the major benefit would be, either. It often seems as though the EU is more centrally and worse governed than Canada; it has a massive and exceedingly complicated constitution, its parliament issues laws to which member-states are bound, and its government tries to micromanage everything right down to ensuring a common, EU-dictated, metric pint glass is used in all countries.

Please, stop with the comparsions to the EU. Canada is s single sovereign state with 10 provinces, 3 territories and a large number of First Nations. All of them are pretty much wholly subordinate to Ottawa.

The EU is a large number of soveriegn states who have surrendered a relatively small amount of functions to a central coordinating body. Until joint fiscal policy and joint defence are mandatory in EU members, they are still a collection of disparate countries with plenty of sutonomy.

[cybercoma]

Please, stop with the comparsions to the EU. Canada is s single sovereign state with 10 provinces, 3 territories and a large number of First Nations. All of them are pretty much wholly subordinate to Ottawa.

The EU is a large number of soveriegn states who have surrendered a relatively small amount of functions to a central coordinating body. Until joint fiscal policy and joint defence are mandatory in EU members, they are still a collection of disparate countries with plenty of sutonomy.

If you followed the conversation you would know that TheNewTeddy suggested that Canada divide into 4 separate countries and form a "European-Union-like" cooperative political district, notwithstanding the fact that he ignored the territories in all of that.

[g_bambino]

Please, stop with the comparsions to the EU.

It wasn't I who suggested Canada should break into four countries which would then form an EU-like union.

Canada is s single sovereign state with 10 provinces, 3 territories and a large number of First Nations. All of them are pretty much wholly subordinate to Ottawa.

The provinces are on an equal footing with Ottawa in Confederation.

[Smallc]

Fiscally, Manitoba has more in common with Quebec.

No, actually...other than having a large government owned power utility that inflates debt numbers.

[TheNewTeddy]

If you followed the conversation you would know that TheNewTeddy suggested that Canada divide into 4 separate countries and form a "European-Union-like" cooperative political district, notwithstanding the fact that he ignored the territories in all of that.

Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and BC, if in a separate country, would NOT have the Territories in it because... ?

Also, there's no reason that Manitoba could not join with Ontario, etc.

[Smallc]

Also, there's no reason that Manitoba could not join with Ontario, etc.

Or, we could just leave things as they are, and work things out as we have up until now.

[cybercoma]

Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and BC, if in a separate country, would NOT have the Territories in it because... ?

Because Yukon, Northwest, and Nunavut are not part of Manitoba, Sask., Alberta, and BC.

[TheNewTeddy]

*facepalm* alright then, to clarify, the territories are part of the West in the post I made earlier.

[fellowtraveller]

The provinces are on an equal footing with Ottawa in Confederation.

Then why do First Nations negotiate with the feds first and foremost?

No, actually...other than having a large government owned power utility that inflates debt numbers.

I was thinking more of the similarity of Quebec and Manitoba relying permanently on equalization money for their existence.

Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and BC, if in a separate country, would NOT have the Territories in it because... ?

Because BC, SK and AB would not have Manitoba as a partner to begin with, what would they bring to the party economically? I doubt anybody would want the Territories either, no return on investment there either.

[Smallc]

I was thinking more of the similarity of Quebec and Manitoba relying permanently on equalization money for their existence.

Existence? Not even close. For an average fiscal capacity? Sure. Manitoba has an economy that, despite being almost the same size per capita as Ontario and BC, does not provide the same fiscal capacity for some reason. As I said though, with little revenue coming from oil, potash, or natural gas, Manitoba has more in common with the mining and manufacturing found in the provinces to the east.

Because BC, SK and AB would not have Manitoba as a partner to begin with, what would they bring to the party economically? I doubt anybody would want the Territories either, no return on investment there either.

You do realize that NWT has the largest per capita GDP of any jurisdiction on Earth, and will grow at over 7% this year, I hope.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Smallc

[CPCFTW]

http://www40.statcan...lfss01a-eng.htm

NL 12.9% unemployment

PE 10.8

NS 8.2

NB 10.1

QC 8.4

ON 7.6

MB 5.6

SK 5.0

AB 5.0

BC 6.9

http://[email protected]#faq7

NL - 4.8% - 24.7K on Welfare

NB - 5.1% - 38.4K

QC - 4.2% - 331.3K

ON - 3.7% - 474.2K

AB - 0.9% - 34.5K

BC - 1.2% - 54.3K

http://www.statcan.g...20217b1-eng.htm

NL 35.9K on EI

PE 8.3K

NS 31.5K

NB 33.6K

QC 160.3K

ON 157.5K

MB 12.4K

SK 9.7K

AB 28.9K

BC 59.7K

Not quite sure what you're trying to show here. ON and QC clearly have much higher unemployment, welfare, and EI percentages. The maritimes percentages are pretty insignificant because their populations are tiny. It is pretty clear that the East is the beneficiary of Western wealth and productivity. Ontario was once a great province, but almost 10 years of McGuinty has quickly ruined that.

Edited March 15, 2012 by CPCFTW