Ont. dad arrested after daughter draws picture of gun

[cybercoma]

Children's Aid can have you recorded as a sexual predator in their database on the word of a student alone. There are teachers guilty of doing nothing more than having standards of student behaviour on that list, then a student decides to get back at the teacher by making outrageous and untrue claims. There was no trial, no evidence in defence of the teacher, just an "Airing" of hearsay and an entry of "sexual predator" with the true victims name attached.

I'd wager similar stories like the one in the OP are as follows

- Child sees parent playing video game with gun or holding a gun

- Parent says that they are "getting the bad guys"

- Child makes picture but does not have full capability to explain

- Child communicates true nature incorrectly to teacher

- Teacher, hearing something that doesn't sound right, is LEGALLY REQUIRED to contact children's aid. Because if that teacher didn't and something happened, that teacher could lose their job.

Does it suck that it happened to someone who didn't deserve it? Yeah.

Would everyone here be slandering the teacher/process if they didn't follow it and something happened? yeah.

It's a lose lose as a teacher. You are always wrong, no matter what.

Your first paragraph is a bit exaggerated. They don't record you as a "sexual predator" in the sense of Megan's Law. The list is private and you're not recorded as a predator. They just keep logs of the complaints. And of course CAS will keep a database. Obviously keeping track of the number and frequency of claims against a person is important to their work. If someone has numerous and frequent "spurious" claims from many different sources, then chances are there's probably something seriously wrong going on. What other way are they to keep track of these things?

[Argus]

. Once again, CAS didn't take the children away and I didn't suggest that they should in this thread, just as I was arguing in the other thread that they shouldn't be taken away, because that would be absurd.

Actually, they were indeed taken away by child welfare to be interviewed separately. They were then returned to their family after the house was searched.

The gun in question turned out to be a toy gun belonging to one of her brothers which shoots sponge pellets and is sold for $20 at Wal-mart.

[cybercoma]

Actually, they were indeed taken away by child welfare to be interviewed separately. They were then returned to their family after the house was searched.

The gun in question turned out to be a toy gun belonging to one of her brothers which shoots sponge pellets and is sold for $20 at Wal-mart.

If you want that to be your definition of taking someone's children away, then you're right. Most rational people would simply call that "interviewing the children," but that doesn't exactly incite the same kind of response as saying their kids were taken away.

[capricorn]

If you want that to be your definition of taking someone's children away, then you're right. Most rational people would simply call that "interviewing the children," but that doesn't exactly incite the same kind of response as saying their kids were taken away.

By all accounts, the parents were not told beforehand what it was they were investigating.

While Mr. Sansone was being escorted from the back of the school, reportedly in handcuffs, other police officers were at his home, scooping his wife. She was there with their 15-month old baby. They brought her to the police station. The couple’s three children were taken to Family and Children’s Service for questioning.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/joe-oconnor-arrest-over-daughters-gun-sketch-a-case-of-vigilance-and-too-much-zeal/

Mother and father at the police station, and children (one of which is 15 months old) taken by child welfare authorities to different premises. Sounds like taking away the children to me.

[Guest American Woman]

First of all, in that thread I never said that CAS shouldn't have investigated. I was addressing Boges ridiculous assertion that every child who says they're afraid of a parent should be taken away.

Odd. You quoted me, and agreed with me - when I was clearly speaking of CAS investigating.

When he comes from the mindset that the state should be extremely limited and not interfere in people's lives at all. Of course that incident should be investigated. They should always err on the side of the child's safety. CAS rarely takes children away and for good reason. It's a drastic measure only done in the most extreme cases.

Odd then, that you didn't say that.

For this case, I'm not saying that every father whose child says he kills "bad guys" should be arrested. But once again, if there's a possibility that the child is expressing the fact that she has seen her dad kill someone, then it ought to be investigated.

Perhaps she had seen him kill a monster too, eh? Perhaps the Loch Ness Monster.

As I said, if every four year old who said "my daddy kills bad guys and monsters" was investigated, serious allegations and crimes would go without attention. Four year olds need to believe that mommy and daddy kill the bad guys and monsters that they are afraid of.

edit: I realized after I hit reply who I was replying to. This will be the only response you get from me because you continuously misrepresent people's arguments on this forum. I don't believe you're that stupid, so I have to assume you do it intentionally and I'm choosing not to take part in your silly game.

Boo hoo. Cry me a river. I didn't "misrepresent" anything. I provided the link. The link to the post where you quoted me - agreeing with me. But yeah. I'm misrepresenting you. I can only hope this is "the only response I'll get from you" - ever - as you're all over the board with your opinions/judgments.

[Guest American Woman]

By all accounts, the parents were not told beforehand what it was they were investigating.

And he was taken from school - handcuffed - without one word spoken to him beforehand - or the mother. This on the 'word' of a four year old, who was clearly speaking of "bad guys and monsters" - as many, many four year olds do. At the very least the cops should have shown up at the door with a search warrant - and if there was no basis for a search warrant, there was to basis for an arrest. The way it was handled was unbelievable.

Mother and father at the police station, and children (one of which is 15 months old) taken by child welfare authorities to different premises. Sounds like taking away the children to me.

It was a ridiculous over-reaction. The kids had no idea what was being asked of them. Anyone who knows pre-schoolers knows the 'tales' that they tell. To arrest the man on this basis alone should be a crime.

Heaven help us all if we can be arrested simply on the basis of the fantasies of a four year old.

[guyser]

Dad should lawyer up and sue the idiots into oblivion...even though the taxpayer will fund the bill.

Idiots all around.

[Guest Manny]

Idiots all around.

Clearly, you have no respect for the safety of monsters...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Your first paragraph is a bit exaggerated. They don't record you as a "sexual predator" in the sense of Megan's Law. The list is private and you're not recorded as a predator. They just keep logs of the complaints. And of course CAS will keep a database. Obviously keeping track of the number and frequency of claims against a person is important to their work. If someone has numerous and frequent "spurious" claims from many different sources, then chances are there's probably something seriously wrong going on. What other way are they to keep track of these things?

I know of enough cases to know how it actually works.

You are listed as a Sexual Predator Risk, sure privately but still there for police to access, with a case that lists the students as victims and the adult as the perpetraitor logged in Children's Aid. Only takes one source to make you look guilty.

You will be moved schools and it will look like you were found guilty of being a sexual predator risk.

Edited February 26, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[GostHacked]

If you want that to be your definition of taking someone's children away, then you're right. Most rational people would simply call that "interviewing the children," but that doesn't exactly incite the same kind of response as saying their kids were taken away.

It's a huge overreaction. There was no need to call in child protection services here. The school made a horrible judgement call, as did the child services as did the police.

Teachers are to be on the look out for signs of trouble at home, but sometimes they read into it way to much and suspect everyone. What kind of society are we turning into?

This man and his family should be compensated for their ordeal. Now you have a man that once trusted the system looks at it with contempt, and a child that will never trust the system that the child can never escape from.

Welcome to the policified nanny state, where you can't even parent your kids anymore. It's disturbing how many incidents there have been like this in the past few years. But this one seems to be making big headlines, and for good reason too.

And any kid can tell you that dad or mom always takes care of the monsters under the bed or in the closet. ALWAYS.

[Argus]

If you want that to be your definition of taking someone's children away, then you're right. Most rational people would simply call that "interviewing the children," but that doesn't exactly incite the same kind of response as saying their kids were taken away.

I wonder where you think you could find parents who wouldn't be unhappy to have their children taken from them to some bureacratic building full of ignorant, hysterical people and 'interviewed' without your permission and with you not present.

[cybercoma]

If a child is being abused, you don't ask them question infront of their abuser.

Anyway, I don't want to defend the school because from the article what they did, the cops did, and CAS did looks extremely stupid. I have a hard time believing that they would go to these lengths for a single drawing. That's really all I'm trying to get at. Perhaps they did and they're morons for doing it. Of course, there's also a chance that there were other signs and this was just the final straw.

[huh]

I don't trust this story. It seems patently absurd that they would arrest someone because their kid drew a picture of them with a gun. I'm willing to bet this has more to do with the daughter saying that he "shoots bad guys" with the gun than the picture itself. Even then arresting the guy may be a stretch. You do have to consider though that a child draws a picture of her father with a gun and makes the claim that the father shoots "bad guys", it might be best that it's at least investigated. Imagine if she drew a picture of him naked and make some comment about him abusing her. Hopefully that's at least investigated.

These crazy stories wouldnt exist if it wasnt for people just like you. Try to cloak your attitudes in some sort of rational thought but there in the background is the constant irrational fear of guns.

Edited February 26, 2012 by huh

[Guest American Woman]

...It's disturbing how many incidents there have been like this in the past few years. But this one seems to be making big headlines, and for good reason too.

From what I've read, this incident is really making big headlines because the father is putting it out there. As he said, his arrest, in handcuffs, was carried out in view of the parents, teachers, children, whoever happened to be in the area - and he wants everyone to know what happened to him - and why. I say good for him.

[Guest Manny]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/25/arrested-dad-wants-answers-after-daughter-draws-gun-pic

Nice followup article fills in some of the blanks. Check the video for more details.

[Guest Manny]

Check out the comments section too. My Gar... this somehow really resonates with people. It's funny how we;re being systematically screwed over, time and time again but it's a seemingly small incident like this that lights the really big fire. Almost like... burning a koran in Afghanistan!

[eyeball]

Check out the comments section too. My Gar... this somehow really resonates with people. It's funny how we;re being systematically screwed over, time and time again but it's a seemingly small incident like this that lights the really big fire. Almost like... burning a koran in Afghanistan!

It's a little comical reading complaints about the excessive use of police power from right-wingers - as if this screw-up was strictly a symptom of leftwardness.

Oh well it is the Sun after all.

[Guest Manny]

It's a little comical reading complaints about the excessive use of police power from right-wingers - as if this screw-up was strictly a symptom of leftwardness.

Oh well it is the Sun after all.

Was thinking the same thing. Gee wasn't the Sun once a Liberal rag? My how the worm has turned.

But still, is it a symptom of leftism? That's a question that needs to be explored... Certainly, right wingers present themselves as advocating the right to gun ownership.

[Bonam]

Any of these articles mention the name of the teacher, principal, and school by the way? Everyone at that school involved in this decision should be ridiculed out of the profession as quickly as possible.

[eyeball]

Was thinking the same thing. Gee wasn't the Sun once a Liberal rag? My how the worm has turned.

But still, is it a symptom of leftism? That's a question that needs to be explored... Certainly, right wingers present themselves as advocating the right to gun ownership.

I think the comments are a symptom of the deluded belief that the right-wing is not as responsible for over-empowering BIG statism as anyone else.

If anything right-wing statism is worse because of the natural tendency of right-wingers to be mean. No one seems happier when politicians are talking about giving the state more power to crack down and get tough on people.

[eyeball]

Any of these articles mention the name of the teacher, principal, and school by the way? Everyone at that school involved in this decision should be ridiculed out of the profession as quickly as possible.

But what about the state's right to it's secrecy privacy?

[Guest American Woman]

Any of these articles mention the name of the teacher, principal, and school by the way? Everyone at that school involved in this decision should be ridiculed out of the profession as quickly as possible.

The school was Forest Hill Public School in Kitchener, Ontario. Shouldn't be difficult to find out the name of the principal, as I'm sure they must have a website with that info.

[cybercoma]

This National Post commentary adds details that Sun omitted:

She also, according to police, explained to the teacher that the gun was at her house, that her siblings played with it and that it scared her.

Full article: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/joe-oconnor-arrest-over-daughters-gun-sketch-a-case-of-vigilance-and-too-much-zeal/

That, without a doubt, requires intervention because the child made it seem as though her and her siblings' lives were in danger. The school, however, ought to have, as the commentary mentioned, called the father and discussed it with him, rather than calling the police and CAS immediately. As it turns out the gun was a toy.

Edited February 26, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest American Woman]

Any of these articles mention the name of the teacher, principal, and school by the way? Everyone at that school involved in this decision should be ridiculed out of the profession as quickly as possible.

The school was Forest Hill Public School in Kitchener, Ontario. Shouldn't be difficult to find out the name of the principal, as I'm sure they must have a website with that info.

The principal's name is Steve Zack - and last year he had offered Sansone a job at the school counseling students.

[Bonam]

She also, according to police, explained to the teacher that the gun was at her house, that her siblings played with it and that it scared her.

Yeah, right. Sounds like a story put out to try to reduce the ridicule and embarrassment the system is facing over this case.