MiddleClassCentrist Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 G&M Entourage Comic on this Issue Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
cybercoma Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) From the sounds of the remarks, Trudeau is a traitor. His dad wasn't so honorable either; he hung out with an anti-Jewish crowd. He was only pro-Canada to the extent that he knew that Quebec, as a swing voting province, can punch above its weight. The Trudeau family is a cancer on Canada. All of Canada was an anti-Jewish crowd in the time that Trudeau was in college. Give your head a shake. In fact, later Mackenzie King said that Hitler would be a Joan of Arc to his people and was a honourable and principled man. Edited February 18, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
Argus Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Yes, you're remarks about wishing one of the founding parts of this country leave were very adult. Yes, kid, they were. The fact you don't share that particular desire has nothing to do with your sulky, childish response. Again no. Says the guy who hasn't ever had the first inkling of a thought about what Quebec's budget is like, not to mention its deficits and current debt levels. Quebec's current debt to GDP ratio is the worst in the world except for Japan, Italy, Greece, and Iceland. Now take away transfer payments and imagine what would happen. Edited February 18, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 They don't pay any kind of federal taxes in Quebec? Quebec gets tens of billions more back from Ottawa every year than they pay. Given Quebec's fiscal situation puts it into the same league as Italy and Greece I don't see how going their own way is not going to make that devastatingly worse. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Vineon Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Yes, kid, they were. The fact you don't share that particular desire has nothing to do with your sulky, childish response. Says the guy who hasn't ever had the first inkling of a thought about what Quebec's budget is like, not to mention its deficits and current debt levels. Quebec's current debt to GDP ratio is the worst in the world except for Japan, Italy, Greece, and Iceland. Now take away transfer payments and imagine what would happen. Since you appear to be a specialist. What exactly might be the difference between the amount in transfer payments that Québec receives once we substract the amount in transfer payments to all provinces that Québec taxes contribute to? I would assume it is only a very tiny fraction of the 18+ bils Québec receives in transfers. Once we have that number, perhaps we'll be able to relativize this 'dependency'. Quebec gets tens of billions more back from Ottawa every year than they pay. Certainly not... or you just have no understanding of federal transfer payments at all. Edited February 18, 2012 by Vineon Quote
Keepitsimple Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 Since you appear to be a specialist. What exactly might be the difference between the amount in transfer payments that Québec receives once we substract the amount in transfer payments to all provinces that Québec taxes contribute to? I would assume it is only a very tiny fraction of the 18+ bils Québec receives in transfers. Once we have that number, perhaps we'll be able to relativize this 'dependency'. Certainly not... or you just have no understanding of federal transfer payments at all. You're somewhat right.....but it's not a tiny fraction. Quebec is a "net" receiver of over seven billion dollars. With a population of about 8 million, Quebec is approaching $1000 of equalization for each man, woman and child. Ontario, with a population just over 13 million, now collects about $250 per per person - almost 4 times less. Here's a breakdown: Quebec and Ontario will receive the most from equalization payments in the 2012-2013 year.[3]However, per capita, PEI benefits the most. In the 2012-2013 year, the following provinces will receive equalization payments:[3] Quebec ($7.391 billion) Ontario ($3.261 billion) Manitoba ($1.671 billion) New Brunswick ($1.495 billion) Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion) Prince Edward Island ($337 million) The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013: Alberta Saskatchewan Newfoundland and Labrador British Columbia Source: Dept. of Finance Canada, accessed 31 December 2011 Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada Quote Back to Basics
Vineon Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) You're somewhat right.....but it's not a tiny fraction. Quebec is a "net" receiver of over seven billion dollars. With a population of about 8 million, Quebec is approaching $1000 of equalization for each man, woman and child. Ontario, with a population just over 13 million, now collects about $250 per per person - almost 4 times less. Here's a breakdown: Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada Transfer payments and equalization payments are two things. What I assume we were talking about weren't equalization payments but all transfer payments from Ottawa to the provinces (which equalization is a part of). This is the only number that amounts to the 'tens of billions' that Argus thought significant. Now if equalization is taken separately, Québec is a receiver but not a net one of over 7 bils. It would only be if it didn't pay taxes. It does. To know how much exactly Québec is a net recipient of, you must substract Québec's taxing contribution to money spent into the equalization program. If 20% of Canada's revenue comes from Québec, using a fairly conservative %, that means 20% of equalization payments to all the receiving provinces comes from Québec. In this case, 20% of 14.4 billions, nearly 3 billions, the number you must substract from the 7 billions that Québec receives in equalization to know how much exactly it is a net recipient of. This 14.4 billions number isn't a direct transfer from the 4 provinces that don't receive any to the 6 that do. It is a transfer from the 10 provinces to only 6. But that is only taking equalization into account. I believe that when all transfer payments are taken into consideration, Québec may be a net recipient of even less than that. Edited February 18, 2012 by Vineon Quote
stunned Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 I agree that Trudeau could have chosen his words more carefully but the point he was attempting to make is worth discussing. First off, Harper is a Majority Prime Minister with 40% support of Canadians. While that is a fact of our parliamentary electoral system, it does not give Harper the tacit justification to make major changes in social policy without bringing the issues to the public. If Western led, conservative majority government makes drastic changes in Canada's social policy such as Gay marriage and abortion, it is not the kind of Canada I would want to be part of either. If the justice system is reformed into "one size fits all" sentencing, it is not a justice system I would support or have faith in. Trudeau's comments simply highlight the divisions in our country that exist along both geographical and linguistic lines. The federal conservatives had focused their election platform on economic issues and gained support as a result. Had they made social change the focus of their campaign, as did the Ontario PC party, I think their support would have waned and they would not now be in a majority position Quote
cybercoma Posted February 18, 2012 Report Posted February 18, 2012 Quebec gets tens of billions more back from Ottawa every year than they pay. Given Quebec's fiscal situation puts it into the same league as Italy and Greece I don't see how going their own way is not going to make that devastatingly worse. Tens of billions? The combined equalization for the six have-not provinces in 2010-2011 was less than $15 Billion, although Quebec took about half of that. Quote
Argus Posted February 19, 2012 Report Posted February 19, 2012 Tens of billions? The combined equalization for the six have-not provinces in 2010-2011 was less than $15 Billion, although Quebec took about half of that. I wasn't speaking of merely the equalization funds. I'm speaking of all federal spending in Quebec or on behalf of Quebec vs what Quebec actually pays into the federal coffers. That includes unemployment insurance claims, as an example, tax credits or assistance to corporations, health care spending, arts grants, child tax credit cheques, and even Quebec's share of national services that benefit everyone such as defense and foreign affairs. You roll all that together, then you deduct what Quebec sends to Ottawa and you come out with a net drain to Quebec of billions and billions of dollars every year. I'm not going to do a long, drawn out search, but Quebec's Glass House is a starting point. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted February 19, 2012 Report Posted February 19, 2012 The mistake in that article is that Alberta does not send money to Quebec. The federal tax rate is the same regardless of what province you live in. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 19, 2012 Report Posted February 19, 2012 Provinces do not pay tax, the citizens do. The reality is much different then simply first impressions. There has been a net transfer of wealth within confederation, at the behest of the federal government. Money has moved from province to province dispensed by the federal government in the names of four supposedly divine separate methods. The Canada Health Transfer, The Canada Social Transfer, A Canada Tax Transfer, and the most vaunted of all transfers the Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing. All these programs are federal, and serve as the means of transferring wealth from one place to another in the attempt to provide a level playing field from one side of the nation to the other. It isn't pretty but it does what it is designed to do. Quote
Argus Posted February 19, 2012 Report Posted February 19, 2012 Provinces do not pay tax, the citizens do. The reality is much different then simply first impressions. There has been a net transfer of wealth within confederation, at the behest of the federal government. Money has moved from province to province dispensed by the federal government in the names of four supposedly divine separate methods. The Canada Health Transfer, The Canada Social Transfer, A Canada Tax Transfer, and the most vaunted of all transfers the Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing. All these programs are federal, and serve as the means of transferring wealth from one place to another in the attempt to provide a level playing field from one side of the nation to the other. It isn't pretty but it does what it is designed to do. Not saying otherwise. And, in fact, this happens on an individual basis, as well. I, for example, pay much more in taxes than I get back from the government in the form of services rendered. Meanwhile, if you take someone on welfare with four kids, they get far more in services from all levels of government than they pay in taxes, assuming they pay anything at all. This is reality on all levels. But that doesn't influence my point, that given Quebec's debt and deficit are so awful now, if you take it out of confederation and they are no longer getting that money from the rest of Canada, they would be staring at imminent bankruptcy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 20, 2012 Report Posted February 20, 2012 Not saying otherwise. And, in fact, this happens on an individual basis, as well. I, for example, pay much more in taxes than I get back from the government in the form of services rendered. Meanwhile, if you take someone on welfare with four kids, they get far more in services from all levels of government than they pay in taxes, assuming they pay anything at all. This is reality on all levels. But that doesn't influence my point, that given Quebec's debt and deficit are so awful now, if you take it out of confederation and they are no longer getting that money from the rest of Canada, they would be staring at imminent bankruptcy. On that very salient point I shall not argue. Then again I am an Albertan of Quebec descent, or at least family roots. Quebec is screwed no matter which way you look at it. The debt bomb is everyone's nightmare, well not mine. Nor is my province living under that shadow, but we still own a piece of the national debt. Considering my views on equalization I am sure not a single person would be surprised at my personal feeling about owing Canada money. Quote
Argus Posted February 20, 2012 Report Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) On that very salient point I shall not argue. Then again I am an Albertan of Quebec descent, or at least family roots. Quebec is screwed no matter which way you look at it. The debt bomb is everyone's nightmare, well not mine. Nor is my province living under that shadow, but we still own a piece of the national debt. Considering my views on equalization I am sure not a single person would be surprised at my personal feeling about owing Canada money. Alberta isn't exactly a paragon of virtue either, you know. A province with so much oil money coming in running a deficit!? And how much are they putting away for the future, for when the oil industry founders from time to time, or when the oil runs out? Nothing. The Alberta government is composed of spendthrifts with no thought of tomorrow. Not that much different from Quebec or Ontario, really, except they have a lot of oil. Edited February 20, 2012 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 20, 2012 Report Posted February 20, 2012 Alberta isn't exactly a paragon of virtue either, you know. A province with so much oil money coming in running a deficit!? And how much are they putting away for the future, for when the oil industry founders from time to time, or when the oil runs out? Nothing. The Alberta government is composed of spendthrifts with no thought of tomorrow. Not that much different from Quebec or Ontario, really, except they have a lot of oil. Harsh yet very true words. You need to remember this is a PC dynasty we are talking about. You want right wing, then have a seat and watch the show. Yes we are running a deficit, cutting into the rainy day fund corner. On the other hand we have self finaced our own budget deficit....that has to count for something. The Heritage Trust Fund has not been functionally managed since the mid eighties when internal funding through resource revenues was ended. We haven't put a dime into that fund in decades. Idiots had the very first one of its kind and blew the mother load. Oh well, it wasn't my call to live and act in this manner. It was the PC government that has called the ball since the 70's. The entire coulda , shoulda, woulda, argument is getting a little old. We screwed the pooch, pure and simple, but all is not lost by any stretch of the imagination. Quote
Argus Posted February 20, 2012 Report Posted February 20, 2012 The entire coulda , shoulda, woulda, argument is getting a little old. We screwed the pooch, pure and simple, but all is not lost by any stretch of the imagination. Alberta is booming. There is no reason whatsoever that it should be running any kind of deficit. It ought to be running a surplus and putting that excess into developing other industries for when the oil runs out, diversifying its economy, and a rainy day fund. It's not doing any of that. They could easily reduce spending and raise taxes now, given how low they are, and accomplish much, not the least of which is eliminating their deficit. If they don't do it now, in boom times, when on earth will they? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 21, 2012 Report Posted February 21, 2012 Alberta is booming. There is no reason whatsoever that it should be running any kind of deficit. It ought to be running a surplus and putting that excess into developing other industries for when the oil runs out, diversifying its economy, and a rainy day fund. It's not doing any of that. They could easily reduce spending and raise taxes now, given how low they are, and accomplish much, not the least of which is eliminating their deficit. If they don't do it now, in boom times, when on earth will they? The PC's could very well get tested at the next opportunity! Yet they are not dead yet. Keep in mind how they got into power in the first place. The entire government is based on the lie that was put forth in the very successful campaign that killed the Socred's. That lie was all about, yes you guessed it, debt. That was back in '71. These guys were good, so good that a few years later they actually got to blame the NEP on Ottawa. The funny thing is that they got away with it. Talk about unite the right, been there and done that decades ago. Today in Alberta the right is splitting apart in big visible chunks. So much for history. In terms of a boom, you haven't seen anything dude. This time there are serious efforts being made in diversification. This time the public is paying attention. The government of the day,is now officially cornered. It projects deficits, spends more and more to serve a growing bureaucracy made up of folks the good old boys have to hire and promote for partisan purpose. The trough is long and deep. That is the truth, whether people want to believe it or not. The word connections means everything in either business or politics. Add the word dollar bills and there is no end to the hunt for accountability. The Alberta Heritage Trust Fund, ended up being nothing like the Alaskan Permanent Fund, even though it too was designed by a Social Credit Treasurer of Alberta. The people of Alberta have been taken for another multiple decade political dynasty. This one saw much growth and wealth accumulation. Quote
CPCFTW Posted February 21, 2012 Report Posted February 21, 2012 Alberta's one of the best places in the world to live in if you measure by unemployment, average income, personal tax rates, and services. Nothing wrong with deficits if they're used to create real growth. Quote
Argus Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 Alberta's one of the best places in the world to live in if you measure by unemployment, average income, personal tax rates, and services. Nothing wrong with deficits if they're used to create real growth. What if they're being used to buy votes? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
CPCFTW Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) What if they're being used to buy votes? Then that's bad left-wing politics. Or you can look at it as the lesser of two evils. Buy some votes to ensure that the parties that are campaigning on a platform that every house will be free and made of gumdrops and lollipops don't get elected. I don't pay enough attention to Alberta provincial politics to know what the deficit is being spent on... but it looks like part of the 2012 budget (or tax plan) has been released: http://www.finance.alberta.ca/publications/budget/budget2012/fiscal-plan-tax-plan.pdf There are some interesting numbers on personal and corporate tax rates in there, and great interprovincial comparison charts on the last few pages. Edited February 23, 2012 by CPCFTW Quote
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