Kidnapped for Christ

[Shady]

Your side gets the vapours if a member of a certain religion does something wrong

In this case, it's not about a religion doing something wrong. By all means, point it out, and discuss. But it's the ridiculous way you framed the original discussion.

[Guest American Woman]

I think that they may think I'm pointing finger at the US, which wasn't my intention. I find it hard to believe it happens in civilized countries, by parents who think this is a good idea for their children - was my point.

Parents of children who are uncontrollable/on drugs/etc. send their kids to non-religious boot camps too - they are 'recruited' the same way, so I'm wondering where the "kidnapping" comes in; and since the purpose is rehabilitation, I'm wondering why it's "for Christ." So if one is critical, it shouldn't be directed at the U.S. or Christianity, but at this type of behavior management/modification.

At any rate, according to some of the alumni: Most of our complaints center on Escuela Caribe, the boot camp located in the Dominican Republic, where we witnessed and experienced physical and emotional abuse, were subjected to young, untrained staff, and had our communication home monitored to keep us from divulging the truth to our families. link

Sounds as if the parents weren't aware of what was going on.

Edited February 15, 2012 by American Woman

[olpfan1]

Religious boot camps, Pray the gay away courses, sunday school, bible school

catholic schools

you often hear right wingers whine about the left indoctrinating their kids at schools

but the right does more indoctrinating than the left

[Shakeyhands]

Interesting.... Read some of the Alumni interviews.

New Horizons Alumni site...

[Shady]

Parents of children who are uncontrollable/on drugs/etc. send their kids to non-religious boot camps too - they are 'recruited' the same way, so I'm wondering where the "kidnapping" comes in; and since the purpose is rehabilitation, I'm wondering why it's "for Christ." So if one is critical, it shouldn't be directed at the U.S. or Christianity, but at this type of behavior management/modification.

At any rate, according to some of the alumni: Most of our complaints center on Escuela Caribe, the boot camp located in the Dominican Republic, where we witnessed and experienced physical and emotional abuse, were subjected to young, untrained staff, and had our communication home monitored to keep us from divulging the truth to our families. link

Sounds as if the parents weren't aware of what was going on.

Great post. But facts just get in the way of hidden agendas like Michael's.

[Michael Hardner]

In this case, it's not about a religion doing something wrong. By all means, point it out, and discuss. But it's the ridiculous way you framed the original discussion.

How so ?

[Michael Hardner]

Parents of children who are uncontrollable/on drugs/etc. send their kids to non-religious boot camps too - they are 'recruited' the same way, so I'm wondering where the "kidnapping" comes in; and since the purpose is rehabilitation, I'm wondering why it's "for Christ." So if one is critical, it shouldn't be directed at the U.S. or Christianity, but at this type of behavior management/modification.

It's about parents who are so terrified that their kids could be gay that they would do something so traumatic to them as this.

[Michael Hardner]

Great post. But facts just get in the way of hidden agendas like Michael's.

It's hard to have a hidden agenda when you openly discuss and accept criticism as I do. I accepted the point that the OP may have been incorrectly taken as a slight against Americans... so where is the hiding here ?

[Shady]

How so ?

Well, to begin with, you asserted that it's hard to believe this is happening in the US. What exactly are you referring to? A parent sending their child away to this particular school, or the accusations of poor treatment at said school? Or is it both? Because the the school isn't American, it's in the Dominican Republic. And as far as the information you've provided, there isn't really much in terms of the parents of these children discussing their motives for enrolling their children at that particular school, and whether or not they knew of the possible poor treatment of the children attending. We also don't know much as to the extent of parents sending their kids there. What are the numbers of children that are currently there, or have been there? Is it a popular phenomenon or a once in every million families type of occurance?

As far as the kidnapping, which you decided to use as the title of the thread, is it just the one instance involving the person mentioned, or is it more prevalent? Under what grounds does this school have the power to hold an adult without their permission? Does this particular person have access to legal representation? Where are his/her parents? Do they know? Does the American government know that this is going on?

See, instead of your drive-by indictment of America, and Christianity, perhaps a little more research into the many particulars of this situation should have been better understood by you, before you framed the original discussion. It's definitely a tad amateurish on your part.

[guyser]

Well, to begin with, you asserted that it's hard to believe this is happening in the US. What exactly are you referring to? A parent sending their child away to this particular school, or the accusations of poor treatment at said school? Or is it both? Because the the school isn't American, it's in the Dominican Republic. And as far as the information you've provided, there isn't really much in terms of the parents of these children discussing their motives for enrolling their children at that particular school, and whether or not they knew of the possible poor treatment of the children attending. We also don't know much as to the extent of parents sending their kids there. What are the numbers of children that are currently there, or have been there? Is it a popular phenomenon or a once in every million families type of occurance?

As far as the kidnapping, which you decided to use as the title of the thread, is it just the one instance involving the person mentioned, or is it more prevalent? Under what grounds does this school have the power to hold an adult without their permission? Does this particular person have access to legal representation? Where are his/her parents? Do they know? Does the American government know that this is going on?

See, instead of your drive-by indictment of America, and Christianity, perhaps a little more research into the many particulars of this situation should have been better understood by you, before you framed the original discussion. It's definitely a tad amateurish on your part.

What a well reasoned articulate response from Sha.......wait a sec, you're not Shady.

[Shady]

What a well reasoned articulate response from Sha.......wait a sec, you're not Shady.

I'm the new and improved Shady!

[Michael Hardner]

Mostly good questions here, although I've answered some before.

Well, to begin with, you asserted that it's hard to believe this is happening in the US. What exactly are you referring to? A parent sending their child away to this particular school, or the accusations of poor treatment at said school? Or is it both? Because the the school isn't American, it's in the Dominican Republic.

For me it's that the parents did this, sent them to such a place.

And as far as the information you've provided, there isn't really much in terms of the parents of these children discussing their motives for enrolling their children at that particular school, and whether or not they knew of the possible poor treatment of the children attending. We also don't know much as to the extent of parents sending their kids there. What are the numbers of children that are currently there, or have been there? Is it a popular phenomenon or a once in every million families type of occurance?

This is likely a one every million families thing.

As far as the kidnapping, which you decided to use as the title of the thread, is it just the one instance involving the person mentioned, or is it more prevalent? Under what grounds does this school have the power to hold an adult without their permission? Does this particular person have access to legal representation? Where are his/her parents? Do they know? Does the American government know that this is going on?

The film makes the accusation that someone was held without their will after attaining age of majority. I'll have to see the film to answer your questions.

See, instead of your drive-by indictment of America, and Christianity, perhaps a little more research into the many particulars of this situation should have been better understood by you, before you framed the original discussion. It's definitely a tad amateurish on your part.

Never meant to indict the US. I've said that a few times now.

I don't mean to indict Christianity, just people that I consider to be false Christians.

Because I'm often the one who comes out in full force against "outrage posts", I can see why so many are coming at me about this one.

Your questions might actually be good ones to ask every time an "outrage" incident happens. As it turns out, I ask myself some of those very questions.

I would add a question, though, to say: if something happens once in a million times, is there still a reason for us to get upset over it ? In some cases, it's yes.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm the new and improved Shady!

You're learning how to get pleasure from turning the screws on me...

[guyser]

I'm the new and improved Shady!

Same price same size?

[Guest American Woman]

It's about parents who are so terrified that their kids could be gay that they would do something so traumatic to them as this.

So it's only about the parents who send their kids because they are terrified they are gay? I would wager that's a very small percentage of the parents who send/sent their kids there. So it's not about the vast majority of parents? Or the institution itself? Furthermore, you fail to address the claim that the correspondences were monitored so that the parents didn't know what was going on. Last but no least, I fail to see how this is an example of "adherents of Christianity."

[cybercoma]

Obviously it appears that this institution is abusive. Why anyone would trip over themselves to defend it or criticize someone from bringing attention to it is beyond me.

[Guest American Woman]

Obviously it appears that this institution is abusive. Why anyone would trip over themselves to defend it or criticize someone from bringing attention to it is beyond me.

Yes, the institution - not Christianity, not the U.S.

But I'm sure you would be supportive of a documentary about honor killings titled "Killing for Allah" and with someone starting a thread about it saying "[islam] has so many warped adherents such as these that it's not surprising that there is bigotry against them." Of course you would be fine with that, eh? And if anyone called the poster on it, you would respond: "Obviously this practice is wrong. Why anyone would trip over themselves to defend it and criticize someone from bringing attention to it is is beyond me."

Yeah, right. x infiinity

[olpfan1]

ALL religion is abusive

[Shady]

ALL religion is abusive

Yes, we get it. You've repeated the same thing, several times, in several different threads. Enough trolling.

[Michael Hardner]

So it's only about the parents who send their kids because they are terrified they are gay? I would wager that's a very small percentage of the parents who send/sent their kids there.

Yes, maybe so.

So it's not about the vast majority of parents? Or the institution itself?

I don't think so. Well, the institution seems to be pretty tough. I'm not a parent, so I don't feel like I can speak to whether I would send a misbehaving child to a ... uh ... prison camp ... school ... in another country.

Furthermore, you fail to address the claim that the correspondences were monitored so that the parents didn't know what was going on. Last but no least, I fail to see how this is an example of "adherents of Christianity."

I didn't see the claim you mentioned. If a single Christian does this, then it's an example of a Christian doing it.

This offends me because I consider it an affront to my own identity, I suppose. My response to this is largely emotional and I can admit that.

[cybercoma]

Which conservative poster?

This one...

But I'm sure you would be supportive of a documentary about honor killings titled "Killing for Allah" and with someone starting a thread about it saying "[islam] has so many warped adherents such as these that it's not surprising that there is bigotry against them." Of course you would be fine with that, eh? And if anyone called the poster on it, you would respond: "Obviously this practice is wrong. Why anyone would trip over themselves to defend it and criticize someone from bringing attention to it is is beyond me."

Yeah, right. x infiinity

[Guest American Woman]

This one...

Zero for zero - which is pretty much the norm for you. Not surprised at your attempt to try to deflect and ignore the truth of what I said, though..... it's pretty much what I expected.

[Guest American Woman]

I didn't see the claim you mentioned. If a single Christian does this, then it's an example of a Christian doing it.

Yes it is, but it's not an example of "Christianity," which is what you claimed - as you bent over backwards to say that Muslims committing honor killings are not an example of "Islam."

This offends me because I consider it an affront to my own identity, I suppose. My response to this is largely emotional and I can admit that.

I'm guessing other people's responses about - oh, say, Islam - are largely emotional too. So I'm not sure what your point is - that it's understandable when it's you having an emotional response? That it's ok to brand the whole if it offends you?

I'm not getting the 'justification' here. Seems to me if one can tie in the acts of the few Christians to "Christianity," one can definitely tie in the acts of many Muslims to "Islam" - yet you seem to see the error of doing so.

Which makes this thread is quite telling, IMO.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes it is, but it's not an example of "Christianity," which is what you claimed - as you bent over backwards to say that Muslims committing honor killings are not an example of "Islam."

I don't think I said it's an example of Christianity. I'm not sure if I agree with that statement.

Now I'm not as careful with my language as I should be (from time to time). You have taken out the scalpel and isolated the problem quite well here. If you find an instance where I called that an 'example' or I refute the use of that wording let's look at it.

I'm guessing other people's responses about - oh, say, Islam - are largely emotional too. So I'm not sure what your point is - that it's understandable when it's you having an emotional response? That it's ok to brand the whole if it offends you?

It's understandable when anybody has an emotional response. Emotion and reason are two different things. Eventually, emotion should give way to reason.

Often I'll state that someone's argument is an emotional argument which is sometimes mistaken as straight criticism, but since I (and everybody else) do this I think it's understandable.

I didn't take my emotional post to the lengths some do and start calling for Christianity to be banned or somesuch, so give me credit for some self control.

I'm not getting the 'justification' here. Seems to me if one can tie in the acts of the few Christians to "Christianity," one can definitely tie in the acts of many Muslims to "Islam" - yet you seem to see the error of doing so.

Which makes this thread is quite telling, IMO.

No, it's an example of bad Christians giving Christianity a bad name, which is the same thing that happens with that other religion.

Why does one make me mad, while the other doesn't ? I consider the people in this case to be "my people" for one thing, and I expect more of them. Does that make sense ?

[Shakeyhands]

Yes, we get it. You've repeated the same thing, several times, in several different threads. Enough trolling.

Oh, the irony.... Thanks for the chuckle.