scrapping all-day kindergarten:

[Guest Peeves]

CP24- Drummond to suggest scrapping all-day kindergarten:

Liberal largesse at best.

I wholeheartedly agree. Having overpriced teachers doing day care is a farce.

FREUDIAN SLIPS!

Listening to a talk show, a couple of callers said how important the Liberals all day..

child care...ooops! day care...ooops! 

I mean" KINDERGARDEN" is.

Cerainly I know what they were thinking.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Peeves

[Boges]

CP24- Drummond to suggest scrapping all-day kindergarten:

Liberal largesse at best.

I wholeheartedly agree. Having overpriced teachers doing day care is a farce.

FREUDIAN SLIPS!

Listening to a talk show, a couple of callers said how important the Liberals all day..

child care...ooops! day care...ooops! 

I mean" KINDERGARDEN" is.

Cerainly I know what they were thinking.

McDalton doesn't have the guts to do this. It'll piss off a lot of parents.

Even Hudak realized that scrapping this would be unpopular and backed off during the election campaign.

But to say that 4-year-olds need unionized teachers to teach them how to take naps and play outside is pretty wasteful.

[Guest American Woman]

Anyone who thinks that kindergarten is "day care" and/or only consists of naps and outside play, is out of the loop.

[Guest Peeves]

Anyone who thinks that kindergarten is "day care" and/or only consists of naps and outside play, is out of the loop.

And

Anyone that thinks high paid teachers should be employed baby sitting 4 year olds all day is loopy

We cannot afford such luxury.

[Argus]

McDalton doesn't have the guts to do this. It'll piss off a lot of parents.

Even Hudak realized that scrapping this would be unpopular and backed off during the election campaign.

But to say that 4-year-olds need unionized teachers to teach them how to take naps and play outside is pretty wasteful.

"Even" Hudak? Hudak made it perfectly clear to us all well before the election that he had no balls. He's a 'whatever way the wind's blowing' conservative desperately seeking to run out in front of the parade so he can appear to be leading it.

It's why he lost. The Ontario Tories haven't had anyone worthy of respect since Harris. And yeah, I know a lot of people hated Harris. But he also got back to back majorities. People in Canada don't feel the need to love the leader, but they want to respect him and think he's a tough guy. Look at all the time and effort McGuinty put into his squinty John Wayne look, into lowering his voice, into the physical makeover so he can look tough (even if, of course, he isn't).

The Ontario Tories have doomed Ontario by electing a series of incompetent clowns as leaders, leaving us with McGuinty into perpetuity.

The weak-kneed, totally forgettable Ernie Eves, the hapless opportunistic John Tory, and then Hudak, who pretended to be a conservative then caved in on every conservative value at the first sign of opposition.

[Guest American Woman]

And

Anyone that thinks high paid teachers should be employed baby sitting 4 year olds all day is loopy

We cannot afford such luxury.

Anyone who thinks kindergarten teachers are "baby sitting" has no idea what a kindergarten teacher does.

[dre]

THeres a real question whether any money would be saved by this.

As soon as my kids were in Kindergarten my wife re-entered the work force and started paying income tax again. Without kindergarten should would not have been able to do that until grade. Besides the direct taxes she paid once we became a two-income family again, she also increased our disposable income, which in turn increased our consumption, and what we pay in sales taxes, gst, etc.

You would need to calculate how much revenue the government takes in by getting millions of parents back into the workforce an extra year early before you knew if this would save you even a dime.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

All-day kindergarten is only really beneficial to children who have parents who don't parent.

I do not think that it is an appropriate time to introduce such a program. Maybe in an upswing... Not our stagnation that we have currently seen.

Even if we were to introduce it. They could pay for 3 ECE's instead of 1 Teacher and 1 ECE and still save money. Those ECE's are trained on raising young kids. A University degree is not necessary for such a level.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten teachers are "baby sitting" has no idea what a kindergarten teacher does.

My sister is a Kindergarten teacher.

It's more about trying to get kids interesting in looking at things and encouraging good social/character traits than anything else.

An early childhood educator could do the same job.

Edited February 11, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Wild Bill]

"Even" Hudak? Hudak made it perfectly clear to us all well before the election that he had no balls. He's a 'whatever way the wind's blowing' conservative desperately seeking to run out in front of the parade so he can appear to be leading it.

It's why he lost. The Ontario Tories haven't had anyone worthy of respect since Harris. And yeah, I know a lot of people hated Harris. But he also got back to back majorities. People in Canada don't feel the need to love the leader, but they want to respect him and think he's a tough guy. Look at all the time and effort McGuinty put into his squinty John Wayne look, into lowering his voice, into the physical makeover so he can look tough (even if, of course, he isn't).

The Ontario Tories have doomed Ontario by electing a series of incompetent clowns as leaders, leaving us with McGuinty into perpetuity.

The weak-kneed, totally forgettable Ernie Eves, the hapless opportunistic John Tory, and then Hudak, who pretended to be a conservative then caved in on every conservative value at the first sign of opposition.

You're quite right, Angus! The "Red Tory" contingent has always been the strongest in the Ontario PC party. After the Frank Miller debacle, the only reason Mike Harris got a shot was because they were so far down in the polls nobody thought the party had a chance anyway!

So he got two back to back majorities! BIG ones! Then we get Ernie Eves and the party immediately backtracked back to Red Tory territory. When Ives lost so badly, everyone trumpeted it was because of bad feeling to Harris!

Maybe it was because once again the Ontario PC party chose to give the people a choice they didn't like? The idea that more Harris type government would be a failure has never actually been tested!

Meanwhile, the Red Tories keep getting there way. Look how well it keeps working out!

[Argus]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten teachers are "baby sitting" has no idea what a kindergarten teacher does.

Four year olds are not in kindergarten. They call it 'junior' kindergarten because they don't want to call it 'senior day care'.

The report which recommended 'junior kindergarten' recommended the use of early childhood educators -- ie daycare workers. The McGuinty government elected to use far more expensive teachers as a payback to the teachers unions which support them with donations, work, and advertising every election.

[lukin]

THeres a real question whether any money would be saved by this.

As soon as my kids were in Kindergarten my wife re-entered the work force and started paying income tax again. Without kindergarten should would not have been able to do that until grade. Besides the direct taxes she paid once we became a two-income family again, she also increased our disposable income, which in turn increased our consumption, and what we pay in sales taxes, gst, etc.

You would need to calculate how much revenue the government takes in by getting millions of parents back into the workforce an extra year early before you knew if this would save you even a dime.

Exactly! All day kindergarten is definitely not about the kids. It's too bad there are so many stupid parents who buy into this crap.

[lukin]

Four year olds are not in kindergarten. They call it 'junior' kindergarten because they don't want to call it 'senior day care'.

The report which recommended 'junior kindergarten' recommended the use of early childhood educators -- ie daycare workers. The McGuinty government elected to use far more expensive teachers as a payback to the teachers unions which support them with donations, work, and advertising every election.

Public education is nothing more than a steaming pile of bullshit fed to people who don't have a clue.

[Moonlight Graham]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten teachers are "baby sitting" has no idea what a kindergarten teacher does.

To add to that, anyone who things that ECE's are "baby-sitting" has no idea was an ECE does.

I have to say though, that with all-day kindergarten, there will be more daycare-like activities (play, naps) and less traditional kindergarten learning done by these teachers because kids that age can't keep the attention and energy up all day that goes into half-day kindergarten.

[Moonlight Graham]

IMO, full-day kindergarten basically comes down to the state raising your kids so they can get more parents in the workforce to increase tax revenue. Parents also like it because in the last few decades they've become more focused on their careers & wanting to buy crap they don't need (nor afford) and less focused on actually raising their kids.

I think it's BS on both ends.

[dre]

IMO, full-day kindergarten basically comes down to the state raising your kids so they can get more parents in the workforce to increase tax revenue. Parents also like it because in the last few decades they've become more focused on their careers & wanting to buy crap they don't need (nor afford) and less focused on actually raising their kids.

I think it's BS on both ends.

How about if we have 13 grades instead of 12, and just call kindergarten Grade 1?

[Evening Star]

To add to that, anyone who things that ECE's are "baby-sitting" has no idea was an ECE does.

I have to say though, that with all-day kindergarten, there will be more daycare-like activities (play, naps) and less traditional kindergarten learning done by these teachers because kids that age can't keep the attention and energy up all day that goes into half-day kindergarten.

This makes sense to me. I haven't followed the issue closely. Has anyone advocated/defended full-day kindergarten on educational grounds?

[ron Young]

speaking only from experience. all 3 of my kids went to half day kindergarten. If the only reason to have full day kindergaten is for daycare then I say no way scrap it....However if it can be proven to be beneficial to the education of our kids then I say keep it. Seems a pretty simple question to answer. No matter what the costs of education is,,, Ignorance is always more expensive.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Four year olds are not in kindergarten. They call it 'junior' kindergarten because they don't want to call it 'senior day care'.

The report which recommended 'junior kindergarten' recommended the use of early childhood educators -- ie daycare workers. The McGuinty government elected to use far more expensive teachers as a payback to the teachers unions which support them with donations, work, and advertising every election.

I'd rather have more ECE's watching the class than a teacher/ece combo.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

speaking only from experience. all 3 of my kids went to half day kindergarten. If the only reason to have full day kindergaten is for daycare then I say no way scrap it....However if it can be proven to be beneficial to the education of our kids then I say keep it. Seems a pretty simple question to answer. No matter what the costs of education is,,, Ignorance is always more expensive.

It's beneficial for children whose parents don't parent.

My sister tells me that it's obvious after the first week which children have been RAISED by the parents and which children have not. Starting at a younger age benefits the kids whose parents aren't taking their parental responsibility serious, or parents who can not afford (shift work, two jobs) to take a meaningful amount of time off weekly to spend with them.

[Guest Peeves]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten teachers are "baby sitting" has no idea what a kindergarten teacher does.

I perhaps have ot made my (our) collective taxpayers..point.

These are not 5 year olds going to school in this issue. Ontario has just had an educational policy change. PRE- kindergarden!

Full day classes for 4 year olds with trained $$$$$$$ teachers doing the baby sitting chores.

Now that's simply paying teachers wages for all day day care.

[Evening Star]

We're talking about all-day junior (4-yr-old) kindergarten?? I didn't realize that.

[Guest Peeves]

We're talking about all-day junior (4-yr-old) kindergarten?? I didn't realize that.

Sorry my bad. thought it was a high profile issue when obviously I should have added detail.

"as Ontario tries to erase a $16-billion deficit." HOO HA!

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120210/120210_ontario_kindergarten/20120210/?hub=CP24Home

Brief summary, more in article.

n a lengthy report set to be released next week, Don Drummond will propose axing the full-day program for four year olds, the Toronto Sun reported Friday.

For months, Drummond has been studying the province's finances to identify potential cuts as Ontario tries to erase a $16-billion deficit.

One of those proposed cuts will be the all-day kindergarten program championed by Premier Dalton McGuinty, according to the report, which quotes an unidentified source.

Neither Drummond, McGuinty nor anyone from his government has commented on the newspaper report. Drummond's review, which contains dozens and dozens of cost-saving recommendations, is scheduled to be released Wednesday.

Nothing is set in stone, however. The province will examine the recommendations and then decide what to cut and what to keep.

About 800 schools already have all-day kindergarten, which the government has been phasing in since the 2010-11 school year. The government spent $200 million to implement the program and is spending another $300 million this school year, according to the report.

Previously, Ontario's government estimated about 120,000 children, almost half of the province's four and five year olds, would be in school full time by the fall of 2012.

Prior to last fall's provincial election, the Liberals promised to extend all-day kindergarten to all elementary schools by September 2014 at a total cost of $1.5 billion.

Ontario is up to the wazoo in debt under the Liberals.

[Guest Manny]

The Ontario Tories have doomed Ontario by electing a series of incompetent clowns as leaders, leaving us with McGuinty into perpetuity.

The weak-kneed, totally forgettable Ernie Eves, the hapless opportunistic John Tory, and then Hudak, who pretended to be a conservative then caved in on every conservative value at the first sign of opposition.

Really? Or could it simply be that Ontarians just do not want a conservative in power at this time, not because of the charisma or personality of their leader, but because they don't want that political value. You are saying so yourself, if Hudak had to "cave in on every conservative value at the first sign of opposition".

Because democracy is about giving the people what they WANT, instead of enforcing an agenda. That's the way it should be. If conservatives don't have the base, their values don't sell and they don't get the vote.

[Guest Manny]

Now as for the OP, you underestimate the importance of kindergarten, which is necessary to introduce the child to the outside, real world. They learn how to get along in groups, how to follow the rules of the organization, authority figures other than parents, obligations, timeliness. Many things. It's not just a daycare!

Now, you might debate whether they need professional teachers to do that, or not because of the pay scales. But it still requires people with special training. As the school year progresses, the level of education gets more challenging just as with any other grade, but geared to the specific level and capabilities of children at this age. Of course it doesn't require professors, but it should not be seen as a trivial task that just about anyone can do. So if you wanted to "dumb it down" you wouldn't get very far. In the end, you wouldn't save much money. And it's a drop in the bucket compared to how much money gets wasted every day in the public sector.

No sir. I am tired of paying ever higher taxes and people like yourself keep coming in and saying, we need to cut this or that in terms of quality, because it's too good. I keep paying more, and getting less and less. Nickel and dime the system to death, by a thousand cuts. Meanwhile we ignore the elephant in the room, what the CEO's and their administration are making in the board rooms and offices, while the front end is in crisis. This is not the way to go.