Any Bleeding Hearts Against This?

Boges · December 23, 2011

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/judge-denies-todorovics-plea-to-stay-in-youth-prison/article2281066/

In the four years since she convinced her boyfriend to stab a 14-year-old girl to death, Melissa Todorovic has been a well-behaved prisoner. At Roy McMurtry Youth Centre in Brampton, she has earned a reputation among staff as a pleasant presence, ready to help out with chores and tutor fellow inmates. A straight-A student, Ms. Todorovic earned a high school diploma behind bars and started taking courses towards an undergraduate degree in biology.
But through it all, prosecutors say, she hasn’t confronted the ghastly crime she was convicted of masterminding nor whatever psychological trait pushed her to it.

This lack of progress prompted a judge Thursday to deny Ms. Todorovic’s application to remain in a youth prison. She will be transferred to the Grand Valley Institution in Kitchener on Jan. 7, her 20th birthday.

“It is not evident that the rehabilitation has even begun, let alone concluded,” Mr. Justice Ian Nordheimer said in handing down his decision. “The apparent risk remains.”

Ms. Todorovic was convicted of first-degree murder more than two years ago in the death of Stefanie Rengel. The two girls had never met, but Ms. Todorovic regarded Ms. Rengel as a rival. Over the course of several months and numerous online chats, Ms. Todorovic cajoled David Bagshaw to commit the crime, threatening to break up with him if he didn’t do it. Mr. Bagshaw killed Ms. Rengel outside her east Toronto home on the first day of 2008.

Both Ms. Todorovic and Mr. Bagshaw were youths at the time – aged 15 and 17, respectively – but were sentenced as adults. She is appealing her conviction.

Ms. Todorovic displayed the composure often ascribed to her as she sat in court Thursday, dressed in a pink hooded sweatshirt, brown hair pulled back in a ponytail, staring straight ahead.

Happy Birthday Melissa! Now instead of being the oldest person in a youth centre you go to being a power bottom in a real prison.

This is a horrific crime and the fact that she convinced her boyfriend to do the dirty work proves she's a sociopath.

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

You make her sound like her conspiracy was on par with Charles Manson's conspiracies for murder. The reality is probably more along the lines of her being a stupid teen thinking her boyfriend was the love of her life and she made a horrible decision to convince someone to kill somebody else for her. Why that other person would do it is beyond me. However, I hardly see her as a sociopathic (one incident does not make a sociopath, btw... check your DSM manual again) killer. I doubt she should stay in youth prison though. There's questions not covered in the OP like, when is her sentence up? why was she tried as an adult? what were the details of the case that lead to such a harsh punishment for conspiracy? was she even charged with conspiracy? It sounds like she was given first degree murder although she convinced someone else to do it. She's too old to be in a youth prison anymore, but if it's psychological help that she needs, I want to know what they're doing to work towards that end.

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

It's odd because the judge even made a statement saying, "Her faultless conduct while in custody mirrors her conduct at the time of her offence ... The concerns remain the same." So she apparently was an exemplary student, a child with "faultless conduct," even at the time of the murder. In other words, what indication was this judge looking for? Was she completely unremorseful at the trial?

This article offer some incite by noting, "Nordheimer, who sentenced her in July 2009, rejected defence arguments that agreeing to treatment would be tantamount to an admission of guilt before her appeal is decided."

So they're appealing, but the judge wants her to get treatment in the meantime. His rejection is actually wrong here. He should know that if she embarks on treatment that it will be used against her in her appeal as an admission of guilt.

The judge also rejects the claim that she was anti-social in that article.

Nevertheless, the law states explicitly that when she turns 20 she has to be transferred. The defense doesn't really have anything to stand on here.

Edited December 23, 2011 by cybercoma

Boges · December 23, 2011

I guess I assumed the details of this case were common knowledge.

Here's a story from when she was sentenced.

http://www.thestar.com/Crime/article/672888

At age 15, the jealous young killer waged an eight-month campaign of phone calls, text messages and online chats with her boyfriend D.B., threatening to withhold sex unless he killed Stefanie, whom she had never met but saw as a rival.
D.B., now 19, has pleaded guilty to first-degree murder and will be sentenced in the fall. He admits to luring Stefanie from her family's East York home on New Year's Day 2008 and stabbing her six times, leaving her to die in the snow just steps from her door.

Outside court, Stefanie's younger brother Ian Rengel, read a statement from the family.

"We are relieved with the ruling for an adult sentence and we appreciate the difficult decision that Judge Nordheimer faced. Melissa Todorovic is a disturbed individual who needs all the help our system has to offer," he said, flanked by his parents.

No question this was pre-meditated and not just a crime of passion, based on the evidence. She had never met the girl but stalked her online and pressured her boyfriend into doing the deed.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Boges

Black Dog · December 23, 2011

She's getting what she was sentenced to. What's to discuss here?

Boges · December 23, 2011

She's getting what she was sentenced to. What's to discuss here?

Well it's in the news again because there was a sentiment that her behaviour since being sentenced indicates that moving to an adult facility would be a bad thing for her.

The judge denied that yesterday. I was curious if people actually thought keeping her out of an adult facility was a good idea?

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

Well it's in the news again because there was a sentiment that her behaviour since being sentenced indicates that moving to an adult facility would be a bad thing for her.

The judge denied that yesterday. I was curious if people actually thought keeping her out of an adult facility was a good idea?

She's going to be 20. I'm surprised they didn't move her sooner.

jacee · December 23, 2011

I agree with moving her to the adult system. She is unremorseful, likely a sociopath/psychopath, and quite dangerous. She shouldn't be an adult psychopath among potentially retrievable teens.

She could, and likely would, continue manipulating others.

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

I honestly don't believe she's a sociopath. I think she was a sick teenager, consumed by the passions of her relationships. When it comes to relationships and love affairs, people do really stupid things, even adults. Obviously, she deserves to be punished for manipulating her bf with sex to go and kill that poor girl, but I'm not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15. I don't imagine it's any different with her now that she's heading into her 20s.

The_Squid · December 23, 2011

You really should be a little more mature when you make up titles for your posts. Hard to take you seriously when you try to antagonize and troll right off the bat.

Bonam · December 23, 2011

I honestly don't believe she's a sociopath. I think she was a sick teenager, consumed by the passions of her relationships. When it comes to relationships and love affairs, people do really stupid things, even adults. Obviously, she deserves to be punished for manipulating her bf with sex to go and kill that poor girl, but I'm not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15. I don't imagine it's any different with her now that she's heading into her 20s.

I disagree. If she's already an evil coldhearted murderous manipulative bitch at the sweet young age of 15, she's only gonna get worse. Maybe she'd be smart enough not to try to get guys to murder people for her anymore, maybe not, but if she ever found herself another bf she'd make his life a living hell, that's for sure. In any case, though, she should spend the fullest possible extent of her sentence in jail. I'm sure it's far too short for the nature of the crime she committed, anyway, as is often typical of the Canadian justice system.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bonam

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

I disagree. If she's already an evil coldhearted murderous manipulative bitch at the sweet young age of 15, she's only gonna get worse.

Thankfully, we don't live in the scifi world of Minority Report. I don't think we ought to be judging people's future behaviours with a Magic 8-ball.

Boges · December 23, 2011

You really should be a little more mature when you make up titles for your posts. Hard to take you seriously when you try to antagonize and troll right off the bat.

Sorta like Newspaper Headline writers.

Bonam · December 23, 2011

I don't think we ought to be judging people's future behaviours with a Magic 8-ball.

No, we judge it by their past behavior. Those who commit crimes like this are put away because they have shown that they are capable of being a danger to others.

Boges · December 23, 2011

I disagree. If she's already an evil coldhearted murderous manipulative bitch at the sweet young age of 15, she's only gonna get worse. Maybe she'd be smart enough not to try to get guys to murder people for her anymore, maybe not, but if she ever found herself another bf she'd make his life a living hell, that's for sure. In any case, though, she should spend the fullest possible extent of her sentence in jail. I'm sure it's far too short for the nature of the crime she committed, anyway, as is often typical of the Canadian justice system.

Had she been tried as a youth she could serve no more than 10 years and her name would never be allowed to be published.

Currently she can't apply for parole for 7 years. Not great, but not bad, depending on if she's given parole first shot. I have no numbers to back up the likelihood of someone convicted of First-Degree Murder being let go the first time they apply for parole.

Wild Bill · December 23, 2011

I honestly don't believe she's a sociopath. I think she was a sick teenager, consumed by the passions of her relationships. When it comes to relationships and love affairs, people do really stupid things, even adults. Obviously, she deserves to be punished for manipulating her bf with sex to go and kill that poor girl, but I'm not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15. I don't imagine it's any different with her now that she's heading into her 20s.

Just curious, CC. Would you foster her in your home, with your family?

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

No, we judge it by their past behavior. Those who commit crimes like this are put away because they have shown that they are capable of being a danger to others.

So anyone that's convicted of a violent crime, regardless of circumstances, ought to be locked away forever?

cybercoma · December 23, 2011

Just curious, CC. Would you foster her in your home, with your family?

I'm not asking anyone to take her in, nor am I even saying her sentence should be reduced.

monty16 · December 23, 2011

The title of this thread is just an insult to morally responsible people who feel a social obligation toward rehabilitation of criminals rather than just breeding worse criminals. That's what the US is all about and the reason why their country is infested with hardened criminals. Also ther reason why they have many times more persons incarcerated per capita than socially responsible countries.

And Canada's big fat teddy bear Stephen Harper is leading us right straight down the same path.

jbg · December 23, 2011

The title of this thread is just an insult to morally responsible people who feel a social obligation toward rehabilitation of criminals rather than just breeding worse criminals. That's what the US is all about and the reason why their country is infested with hardened criminals.

Do you have any evidence that rehabilitation is possible or likely in this situation?

jacee · December 24, 2011

I honestly don't believe she's a sociopath. I think she was a sick teenager, consumed by the passions of her relationships. When it comes to relationships and love affairs, people do really stupid things, even adults. Obviously, she deserves to be punished for manipulating her bf with sex to go and kill that poor girl, but I'm not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15. I don't imagine it's any different with her now that she's heading into her 20s.

OMG! We disagree!

What I find bothersome about her is ...

The two girls had never met, but Ms Todorovic regarded Ms. Rengel as a rival. Over the course of several months and numerous online chats, Ms Todorovic cajoled David Bagshaw

to commit the crime, threatening to break up with him if he didn’t do it.

She'd never met the girl, but planned her murder and continued her plan over several months. She promised sex to bf if he did it, and had sex with him after the deed was done.

There are too many unanswered questions, and a complete lack of remorse so far.

I think the bf fits your description of a teen consumed by his passions, but I'm not so sure about her: She seemed quite cold and calculating to me.

I think there's more to the story than "model daughter".

Perhaps we'll learn more after the appeal is over, if she is then (legally) free to show remorse.

I'd be curious what her former classmates and fellow inmates had to say about her, as they are more likely to be aware of any manipulative behaviour.

More info here ...

http://www.torontolife.com/features/last-days-stefanie-rengel/?pageno=1

Edited December 24, 2011 by jacee

monty16 · December 24, 2011

Do you have any evidence that rehabilitation is possible or likely in this situation?

It's a no brainer jbg, but I'll not bother to jump into gathering evidence right now until I find out if you are sincere or not. Too many times on forums like this I have wasted time trying to prove something to numbskulls who are totally oblivious to reality.

But most of all jbg, I don't understand why anyone would doubt that the US system destroys itself with it's inane insistence of humiliating and punishing people as much as they can when the effects are telling. I guess it must have something to do with the lot of them being rabid righties who are really just haters. Also, maybe something to do with them loving fetuses and hating children of the poor and middleclass so much. Sure not something I would ever sit still and watch if Harper continues his US luvin direction.

Boges · December 24, 2011

The title of this thread is just an insult to morally responsible people who feel a social obligation toward rehabilitation of criminals rather than just breeding worse criminals. That's what the US is all about and the reason why their country is infested with hardened criminals. Also ther reason why they have many times more persons incarcerated per capita than socially responsible countries.

And Canada's big fat teddy bear Stephen Harper is leading us right straight down the same path.

Ok so I'll put you down as being a bleeding heart that has a problem with what's happened here.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is proper punishment for First-degree murder?

Boges · December 24, 2011

It's a no brainer jbg, but I'll not bother to jump into gathering evidence right now until I find out if you are sincere or not. Too many times on forums like this I have wasted time trying to prove something to numbskulls who are totally oblivious to reality.

But most of all jbg, I don't understand why anyone would doubt that the US system destroys itself with it's inane insistence of humiliating and punishing people as much as they can when the effects are telling. I guess it must have something to do with the lot of them being rabid righties who are really just haters. Also, maybe something to do with them loving fetuses and hating children of the poor and middleclass so much. Sure not something I would ever sit still and watch if Harper continues his US luvin direction.

Hold on a second. America's problem is their treatment of drug crime. People with simple possession of pot have to do hard time.

What we're talking about here is violent crime, specifically murder; cold calculated murder. How can you oppose the suspension of freedom for significant number of years, if not life in cases like this?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Boges

monty16 · December 24, 2011

Hold on a second. America's problem is their treatment of drug crime. People with simple possession of pot have to do hard time.

What we're talking about here is violent crime, specifically murder; cold calculated murder. How can you oppose the suspension of freedom for significant number of years, if not life in cases like this?

Rehabilitation. It's a difficult concept for some people but the first step is dispensing with the hate. Then it becomes much easier to understand. People and fetuses are not born evil, it's learned from living in a sick society and that society then has the responsibility of reversing the evil it has done. If that got through to you then we should talk about it further. If not then I don't think we have anything to talk about.

Bear with me a little too, I'm still stinging a bit from the 'bleeding hearts' insult.