Ottawa warns current health transfers unsustainable

[PIK]

Funny how there's hundreds of billions of dollars for F-35's, super prisons, draconian crime legislation, corporate tax cuts and welfare, but nothing for essential services.

So every cent we have should go to health care, you are kidding I hope? Martins plan in 04 was just the same as before, don't worry premiers you will get your money so burn away, now the premiers are NOW going to have to sit down and actually put a plan together and start saving us some money, like cutting hospital CEO 3-4 hundred thousands dollars a year, is a start.I live in a small town less then 9000 people and out CEO make 320g's . Edited December 20, 2011 by PIK

[guyser]

So every cent we have should go to health care, you are kidding I hope?

He probably would be kidding if he said anything close to what you assert.

... like cutting hospital CEO 3-4 hundred thousands dollars a year, is a start.I live in a small town less then 9000 people and out CEO make 320g's .

The Premiers have absolutely zero control what the CEO is paid.

[cybercoma]

The Premiers have absolutely zero control what the CEO is paid.

People really don't seem to understand the notion that healthcare delivery in Canada is private. Doctors and nurses are not state employees. This isn't the United Kingdom.

[TimG]

Doctors and nurses are not state employees.

Nurses and hospital CEOs are state employees. Doctors and many lab workers are not.

[cybercoma]

Nurses and hospital CEOs are state employees. Doctors and many lab workers are not.

That's funny because the paystubs from the nurses in my family don't have the province's name at the top of them.

[TimG]

That's funny because the paystubs from the nurses in my family don't have the province's name at the top of them.

Then they must not work in a hospital. Keep in mind that people working for entities which are owned and funded by the government (i.e. "health authorities") are state employees by my definition. Edited December 20, 2011 by TimG

[jbg]

The health care issues we currently have are not insurmountable. All it will take is sufficient political will to tackle the problem. That will is created by the citizens themselves.

Meaning humongous tax increases to fund an unlimited level of care?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Meaning humongous tax increases to fund an unlimited level of care?

Not at all. Meaning that we can have whatever we want as long as we can figure out how to pay for it.

[cybercoma]

Then they must not work in a hospital. Keep in mind that people working for entities which are owned and funded by the government (i.e. "health authorities") are state employees by my definition.

Moving the goalposts again?

[TimG]

Moving the goalposts again?

No. When dealing with pendantic fools it is necessary to explain the obvious.

[cybercoma]

No. When dealing with pendantic fools it is necessary to explain the obvious.

It should have been obvious that I wasn't talking about public health nurses. Only a pedantic fool would move the goalposts to include them, as if that in anyway means that nurses and doctors as groups are employees of the state.

[TimG]

It should have been obvious that I wasn't talking about public health nurses.

Who is talking about about public health nurses? I was talking about the majority of nurses that work in hospitals which are owned and run by the government. That makes them state employees no matter what administrative structures have been set up. You did not want to admit you were wrong so you decided to play word games instead. Edited December 21, 2011 by TimG

[cybercoma]

From the main page of the website you're posting at:

Generally speaking, Canada has a mixed public-private system — a system where the private sector delivers health care services and the public sector is responsible for financing those services.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/canada-s-health-care-system-overview-public-and-private-participation

[TimG]

From the main page of the website you're posting at:

In BC, the government sets up and funds "health authorities" which have a monopoly in delivering primary care in their assigned region in BC. These authorities are government entities in the same way school boards or transit authorities are government entities. What distinguishes these health authorities from private enterprises is the monopoly and the direct control the BC government exerts over the managment of these authorities.

[cybercoma]

BC is most of Canada now? Does your back ever get sore from moving goalposts?

[CPCFTW]

As long as private health care is banned, nurses are government employees.

The doctor/hospital bills the government for the cost of employing nurses.

Saying they aren't government employees is like saying Canada Post employees aren't government employees because it says "Canada Post" on their cheque instead of "Federal Government of Canada".

[Jack Weber]

As long as private health care is banned, nurses are government employees.

The doctor/hospital bills the government for the cost of employing nurses.

Saying they aren't government employees is like saying Canada Post employees aren't government employees because it says "Canada Post" on their cheque instead of "Federal Government of Canada".

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[Michael Hardner]

Are we in agreement that 6% increases can't continue then ? Are we beyond accusing governments of cutting, privatizing and abandoning patients ? We seem to have - at least, and at last - a basic understanding of what is driving costs thanks to CIHI.

Adopting new procedures and drugs needs to be tracked, publicized and discussed. If we're happy with 2011 technology, we can stay behind and reduce costs. Of course, that isn't practical or desirable but we need to start talking about such things.

[Scotty]

Moving the goalposts again?

If you work for a school board you are paid from the tax base. If you work for a university you are paid from the tax base. If you work for a hospital you are paid from the tax base. If you work for a crown corporation, ie, the CBC, you are paid from the tax base.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Are we in agreement that 6% increases can't continue then ? Are we beyond accusing governments of cutting, privatizing and abandoning patients ? We seem to have - at least, and at last - a basic understanding of what is driving costs thanks to CIHI.

Adopting new procedures and drugs needs to be tracked, publicized and discussed. If we're happy with 2011 technology, we can stay behind and reduce costs. Of course, that isn't practical or desirable but we need to start talking about such things.

Well said. On the other hand with the feds slowly removing themselves from the equation, we will watch the health care system fund replicated efforts from all parts of the country. A two edged sword to say the least. I will suggest that ALL research efforts be conducted at the national, not provincial level. To my mind this is the only way to have federal control over regulation and provincial control over service delivery. This would prevent the feds from backing completely out of the funding formula.

[Keepitsimple]

Well said. On the other hand with the feds slowly removing themselves from the equation, we will watch the health care system fund replicated efforts from all parts of the country. A two edged sword to say the least. I will suggest that ALL research efforts be conducted at the national, not provincial level. To my mind this is the only way to have federal control over regulation and provincial control over service delivery. This would prevent the feds from backing completely out of the funding formula.

That's where I would disagree with you. Firstly, you have to have the confidence that no province will deny healthcare to anyone based on their ability to pay. It would be political suicide. If you can accept that, then it would seem logical that different provinces could try different things. We are blessed with having 10 provinces along with the territories who can each experiment with different methods of delivery - as opposed to a Federal government mandating would will be done and having all provinces toe the line on what they can do. I can see the Federal government playing a role in providing "seed" money for new delivery methods - perhaps a 50/50 investment in building any required infrastructure. But the "vision" should be Confederation partners trying new menthods and in working together over time, developing some common "best practices" that will reduce costs. Provinces differ in geography so a one size fits all doesn't necessarily apply. Anyway, it will be interesting. The Provinces will no longer be able to muddy the waters by saying it's not really our fault - it's Ottawa. That ship has now sailed. The rules are clear - here's the money - now deliver the service like you're supposed to.......now lets all come to the table and see if we can't come up with some ideas.

[cybercoma]

As long as private health care is banned, nurses are government employees.

Private care is not banned.

[cybercoma]

Provinces accept federal money, by the way, on the stipulation that they must provide the level of care dictated by the federal government. If the federal government stops giving the provinces money or reduces it significantly, then that agreement is void and someone in New Brunswick is not going to have the same level of care as someone in Alberta. Canadians a long time ago agreed that everyone ought to receive the same standard of care. If Conservatives undermine that, they will be decimated at the polls.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That's where I would disagree with you. Firstly, you have to have the confidence that no province will deny healthcare to anyone based on their ability to pay. It would be political suicide. If you can accept that, then it would seem logical that different provinces could try different things. We are blessed with having 10 provinces along with the territories who can each experiment with different methods of delivery - as opposed to a Federal government mandating would will be done and having all provinces toe the line on what they can do. I can see the Federal government playing a role in providing "seed" money for new delivery methods - perhaps a 50/50 investment in building any required infrastructure. But the "vision" should be Confederation partners trying new menthods and in working together over time, developing some common "best practices" that will reduce costs. Provinces differ in geography so a one size fits all doesn't necessarily apply. Anyway, it will be interesting. The Provinces will no longer be able to muddy the waters by saying it's not really our fault - it's Ottawa. That ship has now sailed. The rules are clear - here's the money - now deliver the service like you're supposed to.......now lets all come to the table and see if we can't come up with some ideas.

I see the trail the feds are already leaving as they back away from a table they just dropped a bomb on. Wake up dude, the changes are coming hard and fast now. He has the majority he said he needed, and he has his agenda set. Harper just got a new hunting license, and he isn't shooting blanks anymore.

[TimG]

Private care is not banned.

But the only doctors that can actually accept money for private care are doctors that accept no money from the public system. When you add this to the ban on private insurance (now struck down by the SCC) you have what is effectively a regulatory ban on private care.