Ottawa warns current health transfers unsustainable

[cybercoma]

Ah yes. Limited unlimited care. I get it now.

[Evening Star]

If provinces need money for healthcare they are free to raise the province sales taxes. It is not the federal government's problem. That is why tax cuts are not really the same as spending decisions.

So it's not that the money isn't there. You just want the responsibility shifted more to the provinces.

[eyeball]

Yes, it's insanely expensive, but Canada has not been pulling her weight internationally for a long time, and our troops need new equipment. Some of that equipment comes with an astronomical cost, that would not have been nearly so bad had the programs been adequately funded all along. We have some huge catch-up to do, and it's going to be very expensive no matter how you slice it.

No, Canada's troops have just not been pushing the world around as hard is all. Doing so is a real waste of money no matter how you slice it.

[jbg]

You "think" so ? You can read the link and "know" so !

Edit: here it is again

Thanks.

But where I was wrong was in attributing too much to aging. This part struck me:

A change in the types of health services used by Canadians—such as the emergence of new drugs and new diagnostic and surgical tools—has also contributed to the growth in health costs. For example, changes in the types of drugs used were an important driver of drug spending, particularly during the last five years. New cancer drugs and immunosuppressants were two of the fastest-growing drug classes during this period. Investments in technologies, such as diagnostic imaging equipment, also grew significantly over this period. Between 1997 and 2010, the number of CT scanners operating in Canada nearly doubled (from 245 to 484), while the number of MRI machines increased more than fivefold (from 55 to 281).

[jbg]

Conservatives were pilloried as being anti-healthcare, yet they are the ones who actually DID increase the funding. Not "planned to do it", DID IT. They are also the ones who are working out a long term plan to make that funding sustainable by tying it to the rate of inflation.

The Liberals' approach of talking big sort of reminds me of the plans of the townsfolk in the Stan Rogers classic "Maryellen Carter". They were going to collect money and conduct dives. I doubt they ever did.

[jbg]

I wasn't always a Conservative. I was a Liberal supporter/voter at one time. I switched because I got sick of their goddamn lying about what they were planning to do, but never actually did.

I will never vote for the Conservative, or the Liberal, party.

[Michael Hardner]

jbg

Right... so it seems that new processes and drugs are costing more.

As such, maybe these types of expenses are worth having... "good" increases, if you will.

However, as these things come online, I would submit that we have to get better at weighing the costs and benefits. We need to be able to have dialogues about this that we haven't been up until now.

The fact is: resources are limited. There is a cost limit at which we won't adopt technologies, even to save lives. How much is a life worth ? How much is YOUR life worth ? These types of discussions are almost impossible to have in a mass media context since no one would stand up to answer them.

But in a context where there is opportunity to actually discuss the issues, we may be able to discuss them.

[Bryan]

Hang on, what part about "Ottawa warns current health transfers unsustainable" do you not understand? While they have not actually come out and said it for all to hear, its still pretty clear.

It's the current rate of automatic 6% per year increases that is unsustainable. The only plan on the table right now for health transfers is to tie future increases to the rate of inflation. The cuts are going to be 5-10% across the board to federal departments.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

jbg

Right... so it seems that new processes and drugs are costing more.

As such, maybe these types of expenses are worth having... "good" increases, if you will.

However, as these things come online, I would submit that we have to get better at weighing the costs and benefits. We need to be able to have dialogues about this that we haven't been up until now.

The fact is: resources are limited. There is a cost limit at which we won't adopt technologies, even to save lives. How much is a life worth ? How much is YOUR life worth ? These types of discussions are almost impossible to have in a mass media context since no one would stand up to answer them.

But in a context where there is opportunity to actually discuss the issues, we may be able to discuss them.

Such as the First Ministers conferences ?

[jbg]

Such as the First Ministers conferences ?

Maybe hold that on the Attiwapiskat (sp) Reserve.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Maybe hold that on the Attiwapiskat (sp) Reserve.

Nice touch! I wish, either that or pay for MP housing on reserves............

[Michael Hardner]

Such as the First Ministers conferences ?

Is there a good opportunity for input at such events?

[olp1fan]

So it's not that the money isn't there. You just want the responsibility shifted more to the provinces.

not sure how the provinces are going to fund both health care and the new crime bill

is harper trying to bankrupt the nation ??

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Is there a good opportunity for input at such events?

I think the answer is both yes and no. Those agendas are carefully constructed, or should I say negotiated. Its an annual photo shoot for the big shots, so nice is the name of the game. You want things you can accomplish brought to that table. If the Prime Minister wanted to do things a little differently perhaps more could be done.

[punked]

The real problem here when people like Harper or our own posters say things like "Health care is unsustainable at the current rate" is that they can't see the forrest through the trees. No one is saying Healthcare should get 6% increases forever but what we are saying is this is a problem that will be buried with the Boomers. The problem will solve itself as the older generation dies off but for right now if we don't increase health care funding to fit the need of an older population what will happen is a failing of health care to that generation.

The real question is "Do we want to either cut else where (military jets, prisons etc.) and have a healthy population? Do we instead want to raise taxes to take care of a generation who has helped make Canada great? Or do we want to see them wait in health care lines to die because we are pretending there is some sort of false problem. Health care does not need to be increased at 6% forever but it does over the next decade to meet a need.

When you say it is unsustainable no one is disagreeing but no one in there right mind thinks these cost wont go down as the boomers die off. You are using a demographic problem to create a healthcare one and that just isn't right.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The real problem here when people like Harper or our own posters say things like "Health care is unsustainable at the current rate" is that they can't see the forrest through the trees. No one is saying Healthcare should get 6% increases forever but what we are saying is this is a problem that will be buried with the Boomers. The problem will solve itself as the older generation dies off but for right now if we don't increase health care funding to fit the need of an older population what will happen is a failing of health care to that generation.

The real question is "Do we want to either cut else where (military jets, prisons etc.) and have a healthy population? Do we instead want to raise taxes to take care of a generation who has helped make Canada great? Or do we want to see them wait in health care lines to die because we are pretending there is some sort of false problem. Health care does not need to be increased at 6% forever but it does over the next decade to meet a need.

When you say it is unsustainable no one is disagreeing but no one in there right mind thinks these cost wont go down as the boomers die off. You are using a demographic problem to create a healthcare one and that just isn't right.

Interesting points, good questions too.

[olp1fan]

I think CPC is doing this to make the public afraid of Assisted Suicide / Euthanasia case that just finished in the BC court.. decision expected January then

it will go to the BC court of appeals then Supreme Court

Harper will try to divide Canadians on this and starving the baby boomers of health care money

and blaming it on Euthanasia would be a way to spin this

but of course this might sound ridiculous but Harper is a planner

[Topaz]

If CPC promised, but never delivered, absolutely I'd give the credit to the one that DID the job.

I wasn't always a Conservative. I was a Liberal supporter/voter at one time. I switched because I got sick of their goddamn lying about what they were planning to do, but never actually did.

With that being said which party are you going to switch to now?

[Bryan]

not sure how the provinces are going to fund both health care and the new crime bill

The crime bill will save us a lot of money.

Vancouver Chief of Police Jim Chu says a criminal with a drug habit could cost society $15,000 a week in crimes committed to support that habit (Maclean's Magazine, January 9, 2012, p. 24). That's $780,000 per criminal per year. That's $780,000 in thefts from businesses; in break-and-enters; in stolen vehicles; and in anything else a criminal can steal, use, or sell to continue to feed their drug habit.

William Gairdner, PhD, on the other hand, estimates that the average criminal (without a drug habit) costs society $430,000 a year (The Trouble With Canada... Still! P. 371). Again, that's almost half a million dollars per year in crimes committed against us - break-ins, thefts, robberies, drug deals, and so forth.

So I ask the simple question: why are the NDP and Liberals so concerned about an "expensive" $78.6 million crime bill, when inaction costs so much more?

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2011/12/real-costs-of-bill-c-10.html

[Topaz]

Remember the Ontarian Tory that said create a crisis so you can change things, well this may be what the Tories are doing now. Harper has his plan and now that we all know what it is, provinces funding it with little help from the Feds, then whoever votes for them in 2014, will be passing up health care in Canada as we know it today and they will be back saying Canadians wanted us to do this.

[Bryan]

With that being said which party are you going to switch to now?

That remains to be seen. So far the Conservatives have been the best of a bad lot. Least bad might be more appropriate. There's a lot I'm disappointed in, but I would hate the other guys' solutions even more.

[Michael Hardner]

The real problem here when people like Harper or our own posters say things like "Health care is unsustainable at the current rate" is that they can't see the forrest through the trees. No one is saying Healthcare should get 6% increases forever but what we are saying is this is a problem that will be buried with the Boomers. The problem will solve itself as the older generation dies off but for right now if we don't increase health care funding to fit the need of an older population what will happen is a failing of health care to that generation.

Punked, this isn't right. See my link - aging population is a relatively minor factor.

[Michael Hardner]

Remember the Ontarian Tory that said create a crisis so you can change things, well this may be what the Tories are doing now. Harper has his plan and now that we all know what it is, provinces funding it with little help from the Feds, then whoever votes for them in 2014, will be passing up health care in Canada as we know it today and they will be back saying Canadians wanted us to do this.

Topaz, I think we would do better if we discussed the issues, not the politics if the issues.

[punked]

The crime bill will save us a lot of money.

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2011/12/real-costs-of-bill-c-10.html

Yah nope. 78 million is the Federal portion the provincial portion is somewhere between 500 million to 1 billion a year. I would call you a liar but I don't know if you are lying on purpose or if you are just so misinformed on all subjects that you truly don't understand.

[punked]

Punked, this isn't right. See my link - aging population is a relatively minor factor.

I would love to read that link could you repost.