Scotty Posted December 28, 2011 Report Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) You completely skip the Crusades and something else worth noting is sugar production. Much of the wealth accumulated by Western nations (Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch, and English) can be directly attributed to plantation economies. Sugar was perhaps the first crop that put production right into the fields. It needs to be harvested and refined right there. Sugar, however, came from Polynesia, namely New Guinea. The crop and the early technology for it were spread throughout the Mediterreanean basin by Islam. You can literally track the crop through their conquests. So, even the economies that were created and the systems of production that allowed the West to accumulate wealth have their roots in the Muslim World. The crusades were far earlier. I did mention, did I not, that the Arab world was once actually more advanced, socially, scientifically, and militarily than the Europeans? That's how they were able to take over the so-called Holy lands and forcibly convert the Christian populations to Islam (which, of course, led to the Crusades). But then it froze in time, no advances whatsoever, while Europe grew, reformed, prospered, and brought in new economic, political and social systems which helped it move far ahead. Meanwhile, the Arab world is still frozen in time. And the only thing the new 'democratic' political movements will do is continue that since they are all dedicated Islamists. Edited December 28, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Guest Peeves Posted December 28, 2011 Report Posted December 28, 2011 You completely skip the Crusades and something else worth noting is sugar production. Much of the wealth accumulated by Western nations (Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch, and English) can be directly attributed to plantation economies. Sugar was perhaps the first crop that put production right into the fields. It needs to be harvested and refined right there. Sugar, however, came from Polynesia, namely New Guinea. The crop and the early technology for it were spread throughout the Mediterreanean basin by Islam. You can literally track the crop through their conquests. So, even the economies that were created and the systems of production that allowed the West to accumulate wealth have their roots in the Muslim World. The Crusades were self fulfilling. If one invades-attacks, one should expect a response. Much of the wealth and luxuries now enjoyed by Saudis and other Muslim countries are a result of and created by the Western 'exploiters.' Many unenlightened peoples suffered from Western influences - religious proselytizing,but many profited from the development. Once the dictators were put into or left in power the Islamic religion betrayed them and kept them subjugated. Still, I believe Iran as an example is not better of today in most conditions than it was under the Shaw. I doubt most Islamic countries would be suffering as they are today if the Western influence had continued to develop them into a kinder human rights and freedom reality. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 28, 2011 Report Posted December 28, 2011 I doubt most Islamic countries would be suffering as they are today if the Western influence had continued to develop them into a kinder human rights and freedom reality. This is a twisted sentence. Are you doubting that countries would be suffering if they had been improved? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Peeves Posted December 28, 2011 Report Posted December 28, 2011 This is a twisted sentence. Are you doubting that countries would be suffering if they had been improved? Rather, than If they had not been left to their own devices. I wonder at times if the alternative to colonialism in some cases is not worse. Quote
dre Posted December 28, 2011 Report Posted December 28, 2011 Rather, than If they had not been left to their own devices. I wonder at times if the alternative to colonialism in some cases is not worse. Seems like you could use that to justify pretty much any act of conquest. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Seems like you could use that to justify pretty much any act of conquest. Pax Britannica...like it or not...was a fact. Edited December 29, 2011 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 And he was a bastard,whose iron fisted rule lead to the Islamic Revolution in '79 which directly has given us the nutters we are dealing with now... And the mullah's rule is less iron-fisted? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 And the mullah's rule is less iron-fisted? Thats besides the point. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 I wonder at times if the alternative to colonialism in some cases is not worse. Japan was never colonized. How have they done ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Japan was never colonized. How have they done ? They seem to break a lot of the rules those Japanese. Maybe they are just better people. Honestly and discipline seem to be enshrined in their culture, not so much in ours. Edited December 29, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Hear, hear. Uh...These are people whose "menfolk" wear skirts and "adress" a haggas on Robbie Burns Night... Mockery of the Scots is the least of their worries.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Aside from the situation with General Pinochet the replacements are no better, and a lot worse, than the originals. Erm... Perhaps I'm missing something?? Are you simply wrapping yourself in the US State Dept. "Cloak (see the Star Spangled Banner) of righteousness,in that,the WACL propped up Fascist dictators were good because they had the Nixon/Kissinger Seal of Approval? Lamumba WORSE than Mubuto Sese Seko?? OK then... Or is it that you feel Pinochet was a great man that only the Nixon/Kissinger/Chicago School of Business cabal could only really understand??? Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Pax Britannica...like it or not...was a fact. Pax Britannica eveentually failed because the Empire was broke... Pax Americana and the arrogant signatories to the PNAC document have yet to understand this is exactly what is going to happen to them... I don't say that with any glee,but with alot of disappointment because the United States could have followed through with alot of their "Freedom for all" BS... Instead,they took the expedient route basically to enrich and protect "The Empire".And like all Empires throughout history,they are coming to their inevitable conclusion... Sadly,this is going to,not only be a blow to the flagwavers down south,but for democracy on this planet as a whole... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Japan was never colonized. How have they done ? They were never colonized. But they received some rather strong, game-changing rule by a U.S. General named MacArthur. After having two nukes dropped on them. Is that your preferred alternative to "colonization"? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Erm... Perhaps I'm missing something?? You are.I'm saying Chile was improved by the overthrow of the despots. The other examples not so much, if at all. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) You are. I'm saying Chile was improved by the overthrow of the despots. The other examples not so much, if at all. Salvador Allende a democratically elected despot... Interesting... At least the Chicago School of Business thought so... Edited December 29, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 And the mullah's rule is less iron-fisted? No..But you're missing the point... How would things have turned out if the CIA AND THE us State Dept. had not have sponsored a coup and let Mohammed Mossadiq lead his country like he was democratically elected to do so... I don't believe he would have ended up as a Soviet puppet,like the Nixon/Kissinger/Friedman slurpers assume... Annd if that does'nt happen,there is probably no Islamic Revolution in '79 and no kooks we have to deal with now... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
prairiechickin Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Japan was never colonized. How have they done ? One could argue that they were, quite quickly too when you add up a couple of nuclear bombs, the Voice of the Emporer, and McArther in the harbour. This is not my field, but I'll bet they had a short list of get-it-done measures that turned them into non-aggressive participants in the global economy. As did Germany, by 1958 German imports into Canada were threatening Canadian manufacturing, and Japan was not far behind. By the mid-60s George Jones could record a song about his love with a Japanese girl while stationed there, named 'Made In Japan', which everybody understood since all the Walmart crap before Walmart was 'Made In Japan'. Then they moved into high electronics and cars, and never looked back. Those who love to slag America ignore the fact they have a pretty good record of whipping an opponent, then leaving them with a functional political system, a functioning economy, and the wherewithal to compete in the global economy in a reasonable timeframe. Contrast South Korea with North Korea, these are the spawn of capitalism and communism. America can be a bully, and does not always play by the rules, but it does have a track record of doing the right thing when it matters. Quote
Jack Weber Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 One could argue that they were, quite quickly too when you add up a couple of nuclear bombs, the Voice of the Emporer, and McArther in the harbour. This is not my field, but I'll bet they had a short list of get-it-done measures that turned them into non-aggressive participants in the global economy. As did Germany, by 1958 German imports into Canada were threatening Canadian manufacturing, and Japan was not far behind. By the mid-60s George Jones could record a song about his love with a Japanese girl while stationed there, named 'Made In Japan', which everybody understood since all the Walmart crap before Walmart was 'Made In Japan'. Then they moved into high electronics and cars, and never looked back. Those who love to slag America ignore the fact they have a pretty good record of whipping an opponent, then leaving them with a functional political system, a functioning economy, and the wherewithal to compete in the global economy in a reasonable timeframe. Contrast South Korea with North Korea, these are the spawn of capitalism and communism. America can be a bully, and does not always play by the rules, but it does have a track record of doing the right thing when it matters. Functional political system..... Hmmm.... I guess the current Iraq is the exception that proves the rule? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
prairiechickin Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 You've got me there, I was thinking historically without considering the latest effort. Quote
Guest Peeves Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Functional political system..... Hmmm.... I guess the current Iraq is the exception that proves the rule? I think it's the first time and exception, and is more about 'who' than 'where.' Perhaps the success in Korea might be faulted ? too given that the county is still split, but when you have differing religious-political orders both of which have their zealots, I think the USA can be held to account for the invasion but the aftermath? I think not. They, the USA, left the tools for a peaceful country, but as the saying goes ..you can lead a cow...yada yada. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 One could argue that they were, quite quickly too when you add up a couple of nuclear bombs, the Voice of the Emporer, and McArther in the harbour. They still had their own government, and control of their destiny. As you pointed out they did quite well. Those who love to slag America ignore the fact they have a pretty good record of whipping an opponent, then leaving them with a functional political system, a functioning economy, and the wherewithal to compete in the global economy in a reasonable timeframe. Hmmm... really. You'd probably want to do that in a separate thread. Contrast South Korea with North Korea, these are the spawn of capitalism and communism. America can be a bully, and does not always play by the rules, but it does have a track record of doing the right thing when it matters. The US whipped South Korea ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Guest Peeves Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 The US whipped South Korea ? Where is that stated? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 Where is that stated? Just trying to follow this: Those who love to slag America ignore the fact they have a pretty good record of whipping an opponent, then leaving them with a functional political system, a functioning economy, and the wherewithal to compete in the global economy in a reasonable timeframe. Contrast South Korea with North Korea ... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
PIK Posted December 29, 2011 Report Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) I agree with the last part, it is not a "sin" for them to show their faces at times. However for the first, perhaps you don;t understand why many muslim women, or should I better say, conservative women from the middle east WANT to wear a veil. It's something many of them prefer, choose to do. They have their reasons. My view is, here in Canada those who WANT to should be allowed to, with certain exceptions as required for identification, which all of us are subject to. If they don't want to, they should be protected by law from anyone who tries to force it on them. Their reason is not to get a punch in the head from thier husbands. I don't know how any one can even think of allowing this anywhere. I have a hard time believing that these women totally covered on a very hot day ,do it because they enjoy it. They have been brainwashed or just had it beaten into them. Edited December 29, 2011 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
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