Face veils banned for citizenship oaths

[dre]

What world are you living in??

What thread are you guys living in?

[Guest American Woman]

Same goes for that supposed right wing, red neck bastion, Alberta. Gasp!

I believe a woman was once your Prime Minister. Not to mention currently your Head of State. And then there are the GG's ............... and in the U.S. the senators and representatives and governors and secretary of states and and VP candidates and those in the running for POTUS etc etc.....

Edited December 15, 2011 by American Woman

[Wilber]

Yup...and I'm not sure about yours but BC'c is a tough cookie. She'll get in next time no problemo.

Actually, I'm from BC as well. Also, Diane Watts, the mayor of Surrey BC was selected fourth on the list of the worlds top ten mayors in 2010.

[DogOnPorch]

O.M.G. NOOOOOOOOO! Not a female premier! Say it's not true!! She must be beautiful - she can't be valued for her intelligence and/or leadership skills!

She's no Libby Davies. But it wasn't looks that got her to the top of the BC Liberals/SoCreds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christy_Clark

[DogOnPorch]

What thread are you guys living in?

Just because you like the idea of women in bags doesn't mean we're going along with your plan, Yoko.

[Guest American Woman]

She's no Libby Davies. But it wasn't looks that got her to the top of the BC Liberals/SoCreds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christy_Clark

Gotta say the same for Hillary Clinton. I think she's definitely pretty enough, but not the kind of pretty that one would single her out and "value" her for her looks. But - who's Libby Davies?

[DogOnPorch]

Gotta say the same for Hillary Clinton. I think she's definitely pretty enough, but not the kind of pretty that one would single her out and "value" her for her looks. But - who's Libby Davies?

Libby? An example of how looks aren't that important in terms of power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Davies

[Guest American Woman]

Libby? An example of how looks aren't that important in terms of power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Davies

Thanks, and definitely. Sorta like Janet Reno, eh?

Edited December 15, 2011 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Thanks, and definitely. Sorta like Janet Reno, eh?

Oh yeah...Libby can upset folks from 500m on a windless day.

[jacee]

I have a friend - Afghani but grew up in Canada - who wears traditional dress including face covering on occasion, family and cultural events, etc.

For some it's an option, not a necessity.

My understanding is that it is not a religious necessity, but a cultural convention and a choice.

I suspect that the number of women who would object to removing their face covering for official identification would be very small, and the number 'forced' to wear a face covering by men even smaller.

I personally think this issue is a tempest in a teapot, blown up into a huge 'issue' by extreme right wingers whose prejudices are focused on Muslims these days, but likely extend to all non-white peoples.

Let me be even clearer:

The outcry against wearing of face coverings by Muslims arises from RACISM looking for any available target. It's an obsession ... I mean why are there so many lengthy threads on mlw focused on vilifying Muslims for any possible reason? It's ridiculous, and it's disgusting to me personally that a few people ... mostly MEN ... jump so angrily on any antiMuslim topic to vent their hatred, while trying to couch it in some vague 'legal' context.

It's just stupid.

I would support a Supreme Court challenge on this issue simply as a matter of personal belief, comfort and choice, but I think this issue is so overblown it's become totally boring.

As I asked earlier ... where is this huge crime wave by burka-wearing women in Canada that justifies the hatred evident here, and the time and expense of government intervention?

You know, at the G20, orders were given by the Toronto police Chief that all people wearing bandanas were to be arrested, and they were, a gross violation of civil liberties of Canadians.

There are important issues of freedom from tyranny here. Can we focus on something of some importance instead of an issue that only reflects thinly veiled racism?

[DogOnPorch]

"I suspect" being the key words in that entry.

[Guest American Woman]

Just because you like the idea of women in bags doesn't mean we're going along with your plan, Yoko.

Just read a real good OP about that: The Veil Has No Place in a Democratic Society

Immigration Minister Jason Kenney made the courageous announcement today that henceforth, new female Canadians will be forbidden to veil their faces when taking the oath of citizenship. His reasoning was two-fold: the first out of concerns over fraud; the second (and to my mind more important) out of respect for the democratic freedoms these women will now enjoy as Canadians.

I agree, and have said as much - I do think it was brave of Kenney to dare to speak out in this os-so-PC world.

The author of the article spent a week wearing the Burka to experience first hand what it is like:

"Wearing the burka day in, day out reduced me to feeling like a 'social paraplegic,' in which I couldn't convey to others even a simple smile of thanks." So difficult and messy was it to eat in public, I simply gave up and waited until I got home. Indeed, I gradually realized that was the point of the burka: Going out in the world wrapped in head-to-toe sheets became such a hassle, it was better not to do so unless strictly necessary (i.e. Stay in the house).

[DogOnPorch]

I recall reading "Beyond The Veil" back in the 80s! The book is older...1970s I think. This has been an issue elsewhere before it was an inssue in NA and Europe.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beyond+the+veil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QlDqTv7jH4mQiAKklZXwAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=beyond%20the%20veil&f=false

[Guest American Woman]

I recall reading "Beyond The Veil" back in the 80s! The book is older...1970s I think. This has been an issue elsewhere before it was an inssue in NA and Europe.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=4F-xf-R9vNEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beyond+the+veil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QlDqTv7jH4mQiAKklZXwAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=beyond%20the%20veil&f=false

I've heard of that book - I think I might order it. Do you think it would still be relevant today?

[Guest Peeves]

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20091022.html

I think Tarek Fatah - states the case along with authority in this reference.I agree with him. The mask of subjugation is an anachronistic reminder of the 7th century perhaps.

I think Canada needs to follow the lead of other countries in banning the burka, chador,niqab ype garment. I have no objection whatsoever to the wearing of a hair covering veil so long as it is not counter indicated as in sports perhaps..

I have similarly no problem with the Sikh traditional kirpan so long as it's not sharp, though some do.

Nor, the wearing of a crucifix though some do.

I do draw the line at any concession that conflicts with Canadian laws or common sense like vision impairment while driving..etc.

[DogOnPorch]

I've heard of that book - I think I might order it. Do you think it would still be relevant today?

My wife read it last year and liked it...so YES! And I suppose that might be another point. How many in favour of allowing women to remain in bags are married themselves? Because I can't for a moment think that any well adjusted women born and raised with North American culture being OK with some hairy dude telling them to cover themselves up in a f**king BAG and stay in the house least the beatings follow.

Note: I said well- adjusted you cultural relativists out there in MLW land...(yes YOU). Putting women in BAGS is wrong.

Edited December 15, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Guest American Woman]

Just ordered it, so thanks!

[Wilber]

There are important issues of freedom from tyranny here. Can we focus on something of some importance instead of an issue that only reflects thinly veiled racism?

When did Muslim become a race?

[Guest American Woman]

As I asked earlier ... where is this huge crime wave by burka-wearing women in Canada that justifies the hatred evident here, and the time and expense of government intervention?

Who said it was a "huge" crime wave? You're ok with it as long as it's not "huge?" How many would you say is acceptable? And who said it was "burka-wearing women?" When a crime is committed by someone covered from head to toe, how does anyone know the sex of the criminal? Is this a man or a woman robbing a North Carolina bank? To this day, no one knows. Men have donned the burka to commit crimes; and criminals, men, have also donned burkas to escape the law. It's an easy way to conceal one's identity without arousing suspicion.

Here's but one example:

Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski was shot and killed while responding to a bank robbery call at approximately 11:30 am. Three men dressed in female Muslim garb had robbed a Bank of America....

[cybercoma]

AW, your comments stem from total ignorance. While women make up over 50% of the Canadian population here is how the breakdown of what percentage of seats females have held since 1990:

1990 13.3

1997 18

1998 20.6

1999 20.6

2000 20.6

2001 20.6

2002 20.6

2003 20.6

2004 20.6

2005 21.1

2006 20.8

2007 20.8

2008 21.3

2009 22.1

2010 22.1

So your assertion that they have equality in politics is completely wrong.

There has been 1 female Prime Minister that got her place not through an election, but by taking over the leadership of a party that had died and was waiting for the next election to be held. She was PM for less than 2 months. The Head of State is a patronage position (Governor General) and the Queen is a woman simply because she was the next in line. Those are not positions that one can apply for or aspire to, so they're moot.

The example of premiers is a joke. Out of 10 provinces, only 4 of them have ever had a female premier and there's only been one province that has had a female premier more than once.

As for business, you're also wrong. In the Fortune 1000 only 3.4% of CEO positions belong to women. Over half the population is female, yet a shockingly low 3.4% of CEOs in the top 1000 corporations are women.

You're not only wrong about female equality in our society, but also dangerously reinforcing a misguided belief that women are equal. Why you're fighting me is absolutely beyond me. I've provided mountains of evidence and the only thing you can say is that "that's not my experience." I've said it before and I'll say it again, your personal experience does not speak to the experiences of women as a group in the US. The fact that you deny their struggle only serves to reinforce their position as second-class citizens. Yet, you have the nerve to call me sexist.

[Guest American Woman]

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20091022.html

I found this excerpt from your link interesting:

....a person wearing a burka and masquerading as a Muslim woman robbed a ScotiaBank branch in Mississauga and is still being hunted by police. Interestingly, none of the national newspapers covered the burka-bandit bank holdup, scared it seems that reporting the incident would attract accusations of racism and Islamophobia.

It wasn't even reported out of fear of accusations of racism and Islamophobia - and Kenney has been accused of bigotry and it's been insinuated that he's an Islamaphobe as well.

[cybercoma]

It would be racist and Islamophobic to blame the Burqa for someone using a mask in a bank robbery. People use all sorts of masks when robbing banks. It happens all the time, but this one should be sensationalized and all over the news because it was a Burqa? How is the fact that it's a Burqa even relevant to the story? Is there a rampant problem of Burqa covered criminals knocking over banks? No.

[Guest American Woman]

It would be racist and Islamophobic to blame the Burqa for someone using a mask in a bank robbery. People use all sorts of masks when robbing banks. It happens all the time, but this one should be sensationalized and all over the news because it was a Burqa?

Bank robberies are happening all the time? Using all sorts of masks? How would you know that? Perhaps because those robberies are reported. Are they "sensationalizing" it when they report a bank robbery where a ski mask was involved? No. They are reporting it; as this one should have been reported too. FYI, reporting is not sensationalizing.

Your response it is a perfect example of the "scared it seems that reporting the incident would attract accusations....." mindset that resulted in the media not reporting it.

How is the fact that it's a Burqa even relevant to the story? Is there a rampant problem of Burqa covered criminals knocking over banks? No.

Good Lord. For one thing, even if there were such a rampant problem, we wouldn't know, would we? Since the moral of the story is that it wasn't reported because of the fear of accusations.

As to how it's relevant to the story - it's part of the story. Same as a ski mask is part of the story when a robbery is committed by someone wearing a ski mask - and such a robbery actually makes the news. Same as a gun, if used, is part of the story - and reported.

[Jack Weber]

It would be racist and Islamophobic to blame the Burqa for someone using a mask in a bank robbery. People use all sorts of masks when robbing banks. It happens all the time, but this one should be sensationalized and all over the news because it was a Burqa? How is the fact that it's a Burqa even relevant to the story? Is there a rampant problem of Burqa covered criminals knocking over banks? No.

You do understand the rationale for a bank robber to disguise oneself,right???

A face veil,of any sort,is a disguise...So,for identification purposes,is it too much to ask to lift the thing up??

Edited December 15, 2011 by Jack Weber

[DogOnPorch]

You do understand the rational for a bank robber to disguise oneself,right???

A face veil,of any sort,is a disguise...So,for identification purposes,is it too much to ask to lift the thing up??

You...you...RACIST!!! Wait...is a veil a race?