eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 More segregation......wonderful. It sucks but since we can't segregate right wing-nuts who keep stirring up the shit between Muslims and everyone else with their goofy requirements, this is the sort of accommodation that will likely be the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 their religions and cultures were never as strict as Islam and the vicious controlling culture that accompanies it you haven't clue how strict those cultures were or are now...as usual these are little facts that you make up as you go because they fit your stereotype images... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 No, my point is that YOU are sexist. "Society" isn't telling me any such thing - YOU are. You're the one telling me this is how women are viewed. You are the one insisting that this is what women's worth is based on and what women's self value is based on. This is really rich. I'm a woman, I know how society treats me, I know what I value most in myself, but because I don't see myself, or my daughters, or my sisters, or my friends, etc. being treated the way you claim society treats us, or placing their value on their looks, I am brainwashed. I'm so brainwashed that I myself don't know how I'm being treated, what I am valued for, what I place my own value on myself on. While you, on the other hand, DO know how I'm being treated, what I've valued for, and what I value in myself. You are speaking for yourself in your responses to me when you insist I am wrong in how I feel I am treated and what I am valued for and what I place my value on. It is your belief that this is how society treats women, treats ME, and since you don't feel that way yourself according to your outrage - NEWSFLASH - you aren't the only one. You are, however, the one insisting that I, as a woman, am only valued for my looks, that my value in myself is based on my looks, and if I don't realize it, if I don't believe you, I have the added insult of being brainwashed. That is YOUR viewpoint, and it's sexist. They are your viewpoints. "Society" isn't the one trying to convince me that women are oppressed, only valued for their looks, YOU ARE. Society isn't telling me that if I don't feel oppressed, if I think I am valued for more than my looks, I am brainwashed. YOU ARE. Try as you like to blame someone else, but YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING IT; the one arguing with me when I say I don't feel that way and you are the one not accepting that I don't feel that way - ie: you are the one insisting that the way I feel about how I am treated is wrong - that I am wrong if I don't realize that society only values me for my looks, that I am wrong when I say I don't place my value on my looks. You sit there trying to convince me that my only worth in society is my looks and then have the gall to be offended when I call you on it. :angry: This is a whole lot of crazy for one post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 you haven't clue how strict those cultures were or are now...as usual these are little facts that you make up as you go because they fit your stereotype images... thats rich coming from someone who doesnt consider figure skating a sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Beyond the age of 18, yes, exactly. beyond the age of 18 they are adults the legal assumption is that they are making their own decisions...wearing of a veil is one they can opt out of if they wish, but olp1fan insists he has personal knowledge they are being forced...I know of several cases of young adults from devote religious sects(mormons, hutterites) turning away from their beliefs and changing their dress, as adults that's their prerogative we don't make claims that those who do not are being forced to do so... Edited December 14, 2011 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 thats rich coming from someone who doesnt consider figure skating a sport not surprisingly that's completely nonsensical and irrelevant post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 same type of controlling culture that is not canadian I agree its not "Canadian", but the fact of the matter is that it's just as prevalent amongst Canadians, regardless of what culture they come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 This is a whole lot of crazy for one post. What would make you say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I agree its not "Canadian", but the fact of the matter is that it's just as prevalent amongst Canadians, regardless of what culture they come from. i recall this typical "canadian" farm girl i worked with some years back her parents thought it was a great idea for her to marry their neighbours boy...she didn't however and moved to the city and dated my friend, a good beating from her ex who stalked her with her parents approval showed her the errors of ways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Why is dedication to Islam a rejection of Canadian society, but a dedication to Judaism or Christianity isn't? Is Islam against the law here? Islamists don't believe in any sort of state other than an Islamic one. They don't believe in secular governments, and so will always work to undermine them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Not when she ignores the countless studies done on inequality faced by women in Canada and the US. Nobody needs to ignore it, but the comparison with the lot of women in Muslim countries is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) She misses being hot because she can't be appreciated for anything else. Our society doesn't allow it. Her value is tied to her appearance. She's a manager making over $100k. She's gone up eight rungs of the ladder since being hired as a clerk about nine years ago. That's almost a promotion a year, and none of it was due to her looks. Btw, one of her bosses is a man, one a woman. The boss over THEM is a woman. Edited December 14, 2011 by Scotty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Do you have any idea how sexist that outlook is? Any at all?? My boss is a man. His boss is a man. But the boss over HIM is a woman, and HER boss is another woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Nobody needs to ignore it, but the comparison with the lot of women in Muslim countries is silly. what's silly is making blanket statements as to the "lot" of women in muslim countries, you have no idea what they think of their "lot", it's just you making assumptions about cultures/societies you know nothing about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Its you that wants to use force to dictate what women can wear or not, not me. The state won't let people walk around naked. Why? Why can the state dictate that without argument but not dictate wearing too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 .if the oath is important why doesn't every canadian take it?? The oath is important as symbolic joining into Canadian society, becoming a Canadian, and, presumably, abandoning what they were before. Is it silly? Perhaps. But perhaps all ceremonies are silly and unnecessary. Humans tend to like them, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The state won't let people walk around naked. Why? Why can the state dictate that without argument but not dictate wearing too much? But the state will let you walk around naked. Nude beaches have been a discrete if not common fixture in Canada for decades now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The oath is important as symbolic joining into Canadian society, becoming a Canadian, and, presumably, abandoning what they were before. Is it silly? Perhaps. But perhaps all ceremonies are silly and unnecessary. Humans tend to like them, though. well at least we share an understanding positions...i detest ceremonies as superstitious anachronisms, it's like taking part in fire dance with primitive headhunters... whereas a written document has value to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Screw you! How DARE you say that this is MY belief in women. This is how SOCIETY treats women and it's absolutely disgusting that you're so brainwashed by it that you have the audacity to say that this is MY BELIEF because I'm pointing out the oppression. And I'm not alone in the view that women are oppressed in society this way: Cyber, just because society puts a premium on woman's hotness value doesn't mean women aren't appreciated for anything else. I certainly love when a woman looks hot, but I have a number of female friends, few of them hot. You see, in the end, no matter how hot a woman is, if she can't hold a decent conversation, she and I aren't likely to be friends. And I don't think I'm that different than most men. Yes, we're lookists. Yes, we appreciate hot women. But we're also fathers, husbands, sons and brothers, and we recognize there is more to women than their looks. Btw, most young men are as obsessed with their looks as women are nowadays. The media sexualizes both genders. It's just that women are, to quote one of my female friends, simply more beautiful than men. They have more attractive bodies than men. And no, she's not the least bit into girls. She's a wife and mother of three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 That is completely BS. Men are treated as objects as well, but is sure a s*** is not equal. If you check into the pressures on young men to be 'hot' these days, you'll find they're far higher than they used to be. They're expected to work out now, expected to have the 'right' haircut, to shave their body hair, to have the right jewelery, wear the 'right' clothes. Woe to the guy who doesn't match up on the scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The state won't let people walk around naked. Why? Why can the state dictate that without argument but not dictate wearing too much? if I remember a quote from my poly sci class 40 yrs ago "one person's freedom ends when it infringes upon anothers freedom" ...someone wearing too much clothing in no way hurts me or you, whereas the same cannot be said of wearing too little...which is why police do nothing about known nude locations, participants are there without the intention of hurting anyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The oath is important as symbolic joining into Canadian society, becoming a Canadian, and, presumably, abandoning what they were before. Is it silly? Perhaps. But perhaps all ceremonies are silly and unnecessary. Humans tend to like them, though. Despite my conviction this new so-called requirement is nothing more than a heaping serving of red meat (aka disturbed shit) to the Conservatives base, I like the window issues like this open on the collective mindset of the times. I'm always struck by it's depth of subjectivity and misplaced concreteness. As if the mouth parts of a human being and the sound they make had some tangible physical effect in the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 The oath is important as symbolic joining into Canadian society, becoming a Canadian, and, presumably, abandoning what they were before. It's not just symbolic; it's a contract. The oath is both recited and a written version signed by the individual receiving citizenship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 women are much more frequently sexualized when they appear on screen. Yeah... our culture really treats men and women equally. Does art reflect our culture or does our culture reflect the art? Men and women are both victims of Hollywood cliches. Yes, women are required to be hot and sexy. Men are required to be hot and macho. You don't recognize it because you don't see that all the big male stars now are "hot" and are required to perform acts of macho violence in the movies to demonstrate how incredibly tough and badass they are. It's just a different kind of sexual cliche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Islamists don't believe in any sort of state other than an Islamic one. They don't believe in secular governments, and so will always work to undermine them. Are those the kinds of Muslims that would be looking for Canadian citizenship? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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