Gun Club Ban

[Boges]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-city-council-debates-motion-that-would-undo-gun-range-ban/article2256699/

City Council met behind closed doors on Thursday to debate an on-the-fly motion that could undo the gun-range ban championed under former mayor David Miller.

While the details of the motion remain confidential, several councillors said it could overturn a bylaw that regulates shooting ranges and firearm manufacturing within city limits.

“It strikes down our bylaw that restricts the sale and use of guns in this city,” said Councillor Adam Vaughan. “That’s unacceptable.”

Council passed the ban in 2008 after the death of innocent bystander John O'Keefe, allegedly killed by a semiautomatic weapon.

“After John O'Keefe's tragic killing, I don't think there is any defence for sports shooters any more,” Mr. Miller said at the time. “It is a hobby that creates danger to others.”

Two groups, the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Movie Armaments Group, appealed the ban before the Ontario Municipal Board.

The Movie Armaments Group settled their appeal last year, when council exempted film production activities from the gun bylaw.

It's these type of generalizations that people on the left usually rage against. Gun crime in the city are overwhelmingly caused by illegal gun owners and even those murders are down.

It's an unneeded piece of legislation that's public safety implications are negligible.

Also apparently the City loses out on some money because they wouldn't allow the Sportsman Show that happens March Break at the CNE grounds because they sell firearms at that event.

[Shakeyhands]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-city-council-debates-motion-that-would-undo-gun-range-ban/article2256699/

It's these type of generalizations that people on the left usually rage against. Gun crime in the city are overwhelmingly caused by illegal gun owners and even those murders are down.

It's an unneeded piece of legislation that's public safety implications are negligible.

Also apparently the City loses out on some money because they wouldn't allow the Sportsman Show that happens March Break at the CNE grounds because they sell firearms at that event.

As a gun guy, I have to agree that it is silly.

As a raging Liberal, I have to disagree with your generalization about "people on the left".

[Boges]

As a gun guy, I have to agree that it is silly.

As a raging Liberal, I have to disagree with your generalization about "people on the left".

I meant that people on the left don't like generalizations like, say, all people on welfare are cheating the system etc.

Or my favourite, the French are mostly whiny bitches.

Legal gun owners don't pose are great public safety threat.

[Shakeyhands]

I meant that people on the left don't like generalizations like, say, all people on welfare are cheating the system etc.

Or my favourite, the French are mostly whiny bitches.

Legal gun owners don't pose are great public safety threat.

Wow... this is a first then. I agree with you. It is a dumb law, it should be debated on and changed or not based on merits though, not procedual trickery.

[Mascotal]

Sounds like your gun club needs to do some public relations work. Have an open house and invite the public to come check out the club and talk with shooters and even try your guns. (supervised of course) Show them the positive aspects of the club. Safety,education,conservation. Show how the club can offer a safe environment for young people to learn that guns should be respected, not feared. Help people get their license. Get people started into "Cowboy Action Shooting" and show how much fun it can be for the entire family. Have a black powder demo. Next thing you know the entire community will back the club and city counsel will get the message. Leave our club alone.

[Mascotal]

I think Mr. Vaughan has his head in the sand. Gun clubs are needed especially in the city areas. Police need access to them as an inexpensive way to practice. Not only that, the educational aspect is very important. If little johnny knows about guns and how to respect them, the next time he goes to his friends house he won't try to show off by grabbing the gun from the closet.

Mr. Vaughan is doing more harm to your community then he knows. To limit access to guns and gun ranges will only breed ignorance. An investigation into the death of that man would likely show he and his friends did not follow safety rules in accordance with the club policies. When I was in high school, I organized a field trip for our class. We went to our local military armory and they taught us to shoot 22 cal. rifles and gun safety. I got an A+ for the effort. I wonder how a field trip like that would be accepted today? I bet the teacher and students would be on the 6 o clock news.

[huh]

Its strange to me that one incident was apparently enough to shut down gun clubs but for those who made that decision I would bet their political leanings lead them to think that sentences for violent criminals are fine as is and we don't need more prisons, seems odd that.

[prairiechickin]

We went to our local military armory and they taught us to shoot 22 cal. rifles and gun safety. I got an A+ for the effort. I wonder how a field trip like that would be accepted today? I bet the teacher and students would be on the 6 o clock news.

I did the same thing with my best friend back when we were 15. But get this, we took the bus to the armory, with our guns uncased. Nobody blinked. Today there'd be a SWAT team and you'd be on the six o'clock news. My my how times have changed. So what has changed in the last 30 years? Used to be two kids getting on a bus with rifles were probably going somewhere for target practice, and nobody looked twice. Today it requires immediate armed response.

[eyeball]

Gun club bans are counter-productive, they'd be the most natural places for making gun-owners safely store their firearms.

To acquire a licence you should need to present paid up membership in a registered club that provides storage facilities. This would be in line with the requirement to have insurance on a vehicle before it can be driven.

Exceptions to this would have to be just that, exceptional. Protecting chickens in your backyard probably shouldn't count.

Edited January 8, 2012 by eyeball

[prairiechickin]

Gun club bans are counter-productive, they'd be the most natural places for making gun-owners safely store their firearms.

To acquire a licence you should need to present paid up membership in a registered club that provides storage facilities. This would be in line with the requirement to have insurance on a vehicle before it can be driven.

Exceptions to this would have to be just that, exceptional. Protecting chickens in your backyard probably shouldn't count.

You're starting to make a little more sense here, if I had a shooting range where I could safely store my guns, that might work. My problem with your gun warehouse idea is that before I go hunting, I sight that gun in so I know its hitting bang on, I hate making bad shots -- animals suffer and meat gets ruined. If I sight my gun in, then take it to some warehouse, I just have to sight it in again because it was out of my control and I don't know for sure some clerk didn't bang the scope on something while it was out of my sight. I still don't see how this works for country folk though. Coyotes, cougars and bears aside, if I'm living 40 miles from town I want a gun around, not so much for the four legged predators, but for the two legged ones. When you can guarantee me all the bad guys no longer have guns, then I'll think about giving up my right to self-defense.

[eyeball]

You're starting to make a little more sense here, if I had a shooting range where I could safely store my guns, that might work. My problem with your gun warehouse idea is that before I go hunting, I sight that gun in so I know its hitting bang on, I hate making bad shots -- animals suffer and meat gets ruined. If I sight my gun in, then take it to some warehouse, I just have to sight it in again because it was out of my control and I don't know for sure some clerk didn't bang the scope on something while it was out of my sight.

Presumably the employees of a club would be better trained and have the quality work ethic a club member would expect of his club. A club might also alleviate a lot of the angst that a government run facility would engender amongst gun owners who are paranoid about government control.

I still don't see how this works for country folk though. Coyotes, cougars and bears aside, if I'm living 40 miles from town I want a gun around, not so much for the four legged predators, but for the two legged ones. When you can guarantee me all the bad guys no longer have guns, then I'll think about giving up my right to self-defense.

If you have armed criminals running around the boonies you must either live where people grow dope for a living or where hunting gangs guard their favourite hunting sites.

I think the worst gun violence we hear about would disappear if the prohibition of dope was ended. As for hunting gangs, GPS chips in their guns would probably take a lot of the fun out of their foolishness.

[Guest Manny]

All guns should be banned, illegal, that would make tracking guns a lot easier, so that criminals can't get their weapons.

Like the time in Toronto when they opened a new gun store. They had the bars in the window and guns locked away safely. Then in the middle of the night, a van crashed through the front of the store, smashed into the wall and the criminals got out, grabbed hundreds of handguns and rifles, and took off. That's how they get them.

[eyeball]

All guns should be banned, illegal, that would make tracking guns a lot easier, so that criminals can't get their weapons.

That won't work. In the example you provided only stronger bars on the windows or better yet, no window at all would have.

Most criminals who need weapons are drug dealers and the main reason they need them is to resolve disputes with other drug dealers. Normally, competitors have legal avenues in which to do this which explains why we don't see employees of government liquor stores shooting it out in the streets with beer and wine stores clerks.

Edited January 9, 2012 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

...I think the worst gun violence we hear about would disappear if the prohibition of dope was ended.

Sure...that would have absolutely prevented the Montreal Massacre.

[dre]

Sure...that would have absolutely prevented the Montreal Massacre.

Which is what... 1% of murders with guns in the last couple decades?

Edited January 9, 2012 by dre

[Guest Manny]

That won't work. In the example you provided only stronger bars on the windows or better yet, no window at all would have.

Or better yet, no gun store at all. Then procurement of any and all guns would have to be done through smuggling.

[prairiechickin]

Or better yet, no gun store at all. Then procurement of any and all guns would have to be done through smuggling.

That's the key to real regulation.

Edited January 9, 2012 by prairiechickin

[prairiechickin]

If you have armed criminals running around the boonies you must either live where people grow dope for a living or where hunting gangs guard their favourite hunting sites.

I think the worst gun violence we hear about would disappear if the prohibition of dope was ended. As for hunting gangs, GPS chips in their guns would probably take a lot of the fun out of their foolishness.

I spent the better part of ten years on the Nashwaak River in New Brunswick and ya, I'm pretty sure most of them were growing dope, and yes, I'm prety sure they were all well armed. This hunting site thing I've never heard of. But I'm pretty sure they were well armed growiong dope on the Nashwaak. Do you really think they would put GPS chips in their guns? Christ, they barely put plates on their vehicles.

Seriously eyeball, we're not going to put GPS chips in the guns, get over it.

[Shakeyhands]

Coyotes, cougars and bears aside, if I'm living 40 miles from town I want a gun around, not so much for the four legged predators, but for the two legged ones. When you can guarantee me all the bad guys no longer have guns, then I'll think about giving up my right to self-defense.

You should lose your PAL and guns for this sentence. This coming from a gun owner.

[eyeball]

I spent the better part of ten years on the Nashwaak River in New Brunswick and ya, I'm pretty sure most of them were growing dope, and yes, I'm prety sure they were all well armed. This hunting site thing I've never heard of. But I'm pretty sure they were well armed growiong dope on the Nashwaak. Do you really think they would put GPS chips in their guns? Christ, they barely put plates on their vehicles.

No. I said put chips in the hunting gang's guns. The only thing that's going to stop the dope growers from using guns is to stop criminalizing their produce. Apparently you gun owners know what it's like to be criminalized so you should be able to sympathize. Like you the vast majority of dope growers are otherwise perfectly normal law abiding citizens who were caught up in some god awful moral engineering scheme of the Nanny state.

The hunting gangs are up in northern Quebec. They were probably just a bunch of good ol' boys once upon a time but perhaps the gun registry made them crazy and then the criminality followed.

Seriously eyeball, we're not going to put GPS chips in the guns, get over it.

Why not, they put chips in all sorts of things these days. I expect this will be done by the manufacturer in the case of new guns and the old one's could be retrofitted.

[Mascotal]

You should lose your PAL and guns for this sentence. This coming from a gun owner.

Why? do you live in the city? It takes two minutes to get your gun and load it. How fast can the police get there?

[prairiechickin]

You should lose your PAL and guns for this sentence. This coming from a gun owner.

You don't state why. Are you suggesting people who live in remote areas have no right to defend themselves?

[Shakeyhands]

Why? do you live in the city? It takes two minutes to get your gun and load it. How fast can the police get there?

What difference does where I live make?

You don't state why. Are you suggesting people who live in remote areas have no right to defend themselves?

I would have thought it obvious. Take a knife for instance, it's a tool right up until the point that you say it's for protection, it then becomes a weapon and you can be charged according to the CCoC. A gun is a tool that a hunter uses to harvest game, or a person uses for competition or plinking for fun, it is not a legitimate use to keep for home defense.

If you had stated "I want a gun around, not so much for the four legged predators, but for the two legged ones." I dare say you would not have been approved, and rightfully so.

[prairiechickin]

I would have thought it obvious. Take a knife for instance, it's a tool right up until the point that you say it's for protection, it then becomes a weapon and you can be charged according to the CCoC. A gun is a tool that a hunter uses to harvest game, or a person uses for competition or plinking for fun, it is not a legitimate use to keep for home defense.

If you had stated "I want a gun around, not so much for the four legged predators, but for the two legged ones." I dare say you would not have been approved, and rightfully so.

All my guns are for hunting, I'm not much of a target shooter beyond sighting them in. But I reserve the right to defend myself in my own home by any and all means. Who are you to tell me that if some psycho comes kicking in my door I just have to sit there and take it? You do what you wnat in your house, I'll manage mine the way I see fit.

[prairiechickin]

No. I said put chips in the hunting gang's guns. The only thing that's going to stop the dope growers from using guns is to stop criminalizing their produce. Apparently you gun owners know what it's like to be criminalized so you should be able to sympathize. Like you the vast majority of dope growers are otherwise perfectly normal law abiding citizens who were caught up in some god awful moral engineering scheme of the Nanny state.

The hunting gangs are up in northern Quebec. They were probably just a bunch of good ol' boys once upon a time but perhaps the gun registry made them crazy and then the criminality followed.

I agree completly regarding the pot growers, I lived in and among them for years and they were a pretty harmless bunch. That bullshit going on in the woods of Quebec is an entirely different matter. If I was in charge, I'd nip that in the bud. Twenty or thirty real cops disguised as hunters should patrol those woods, and anyone caught engaging in that sort of behavior should lose their hunting priviledges for life. That would weed out the bad ones in a year or two, and serve notice on the rest. In all my years hunting I've never encountered anything like that.