Governments should "Buy Canadian"

[caesar]

"Shipyard workers say they have proof new boats will be built in Europe

July 20, 2004 - 11:23 am

By: Treena Wood

The BC Shipyard General Workers Federation says it has more proof BC Ferry Services has already decided to build three new ships in Europe. The Federation says it has a letter proving the Ferry Corporation has asked the federal government to remove a 25-percent customs duty on importing foreign built ferries. The local ship builders have already charged BC Ferry Services with shutting them out of the bidding process.Ferry Services says anyone in the world is able to bid, including local companies.The contract is worth about half a Billion dollars, and the Shipyard Federation says if it's given to a foreign company, BC stands to lose two-thousand jobs.

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We should be spending our money within our own province or country. Price is reduced by taxes paid back and people employed

[kimmy]

We should be spending our money within our own province or country.  Price is reduced by taxes paid back and people employed

I don't follow BC news super-closely... but wasn't the last attempt at building ferries in BC (those super-fast katamarans, right?) an unmitigated disaster? I seem to remember that project costing hundreds of millions over budget, arriving late, and having bigtime mechanical failures. After an experience like that, can you blame them for shopping elsehwere?

-kimmy

[caesar]

Yes, I certainly can. Those ferries were cheaper than what they will be paying for these replacements. The original ones were only the wrong type of engines and only needed to exchange engines. It had little to do with the quality of the ships.

It was just a lot of political propaganda as far as I am concerned.

[playfullfellow]

I agree with you to a certain extent that the government should buy locally if they can but it should not be a guarantee. That would stiffle competition and lead to poor workmanship. If they can get a superior product at the same price somewhere else, then so be it.

[Stoker]

Yes, I certainly can. Those ferries were cheaper than what they will be paying for these replacements. The original ones were only the wrong type of engines and only needed to exchange engines. It had little to do with the quality of the ships.

It was just a lot of political propaganda as far as I am concerned.

If you are concerned about "cheaper", why are you against buying European ships?

I agree with you to a certain extent that the government should buy locally if they can but it should not be a guarantee. That would stiffle competition and lead to poor workmanship. If they can get a superior product at the same price somewhere else, then so be it.

Exactly, and perhaps the Union members who represent the workers at Victoria shipyards will understand that paying labourers over twenty bucks an hour to push a broom around is going to cost them work.

[caesar]

The European ones are not cheaper and return no money to BC. The shipyards contributed 22 million and 2 thousand jobs.

I am sure the shipyards do not employ that many broom pushers at 20 bucks and hour. If it does a good percentage of that wage would pay taxes and be spent in BC; so it really isn't as much as you would think.

Costs for anything spent locally cannot be compared dollar for dollar to having it built elsewhere. Building here returns much of that money to taxes and businesses locally. Our economy.

[Cartman]

I would rather pay a Canadian a little too much of my tax $$ than give less to a foreign country. I agree with PFF that competition needs to be maintained and quality assured, but most unionists take pride in their work and I assume that Canadians can compete with everyone else.

[Stoker]

Keeping the money in the province would be ideal, but I'm against corporate welfare and as playfullfellow has said giving BC shipyards a guarantee on ferry production would and has lead to "stiffle(d) competition and to poor workmanship".

The European ones are not cheaper and return no money to BC. The shipyards contributed 22 million and 2 thousand jobs.

The European (and Asian) ones are cheaper, since most European governments {see Izar} subsidize their shipbuilding industry and don't have to deal with as high of labour costs as we do in North America.

I am sure the shipyards do not employ that many broom pushers at 20 bucks and hour. If it does a good percentage of that wage would pay taxes and be spent in BC; so it really isn't as much as you would think.

Costs for anything spent locally cannot be compared dollar for dollar to having it built elsewhere. Building here returns much of that money to taxes and businesses locally. Our economy.

They do. I've seen it with my own eyes, I've worked in the bloody place and have friends that continue to work( if you call it that) there. Ask any shipyard worker, of any trade and they will tell you that it's feast or famine down there.........what they won't tell you is that they priced themselves out of work. And if it wasn't for BCFC, CCG, DND, and the odd cruise ship (and EI), they would all be in a different trade.

Ask yourself what would be better: $ 12-15 hr year round or $ 20-22 hr for a few months of the year?

[Stoker]

I would rather pay a Canadian a little too much of my tax $$ than give less to a foreign country. I agree with PFF that competition needs to be maintained and quality assured, but most unionists take pride in their work and I assume that Canadians can compete with everyone else.

Yeah the Unions and Washington Marine Group are tight

The fact is, "unionists" can't compete (in terms of cost) with labour costs in a second world nation and that has the government subsidizing the industry.

[caesar]

The Problem is they did not even put our BC shipyards on the bidding list. The ferries are now semi private. We pay the costs and someone else takes the profit; all pretty vague and shady. I believe it is being run by the Washington group. This group is connected to Kevin Washington who is owner or part owner of the company that built the Fast Cats and the company that bought the fast cats back at a garage sale. Our promise of an open government is gone; everything is done quietly with no notice until it is too late to fight. Campbell knows he will be gone come next election. After this year, our government cannot go into deficit. I think he is spending all our future income so that the next government will have nothing to spend; just pay the bill (If they are lucky) for all Campbell has approved already. He is spending enormous sums on anything fancy for the olympics; leaving nothing for anything else including children's ministries and health care.

[August1991]

Keeping the money in the province would be ideal

Is it "ideal" to keep your own money in your own family? Do you pay your family members to make your clothes for you? Why not?

This is the logic you are applying to the BC government.

[willy]

The Problem is they did not even put our BC shipyards on the bidding list. The ferries are now semi private. We pay the costs and someone else takes the profit; all pretty vague and shady. I believe it is being run by the Washington group. This group is connected to Kevin Washington who is owner or part owner of the company that built the Fast Cats and the company that bought the fast cats back at a garage sale.

Can you at least use a few facts.

BC firms are on the bid list. All their contracts go to open tender and are listed on BC bid. It is a public access website. They are rebuilding the whole fleet and that is many more boats than three.

The Washington group has nothing to do with the ferries. They bought the fast cats at auction and they are still sitting in dock rusting.

The ferries were moved to a private entity just like the airport. This was designed to remove the politics out of the business decisions. (Like where you buy the next set of ferries)

They will build some of the new ferries in BC, if not ask the question why our ship building industry can not even compete. I would imagine the cost of transporting a ferry half way around the world would be a good competitive advantage.

[caesar]

Now the company is working on a deal to sell the Pacificats to a buyer who would turn them into floating casinos on the East coast.

Shipyard workers union president George McPherson says the ships were sold off by the government for tens of millions of dollars less than what they are worth.

"They are world-class vessels. There's no question about that. They were an asset that the province owned," he says. "And in my mind, they were given away for nothing."

The union had raised the same concerns at the time of the sale last March –accusing the B.C.Liberals of selling the catamaran ferrries for political reasons.

[playfullfellow]

If they are such world class vessels, why are they still sitting in dry-dock rusting away? Most private businesses would not want to see this happen to a multi million dollar investment. Are there still problems with these things so they still don't work right? My understanding is that they were lemons to begin with. Would you go back to the same car dealership you bought a lemon from before? Not very likely. Since these bloody things are still collecting dust, there must be something else wrong with them.

[willy]

Now the company is working on a deal to sell the Pacificats to a buyer who would turn them into floating casinos on the East coast.

They are the Washington Groups boats, they can do as they wish. They are finding out what the government found out, they are not sea worthy outside of the islands and they cant travel fast inside the ilands. They are also built to fit BC docks and they are unique. The metal in those boats is the only thing worth anything. They could recycle them for the metal and they would be more useful.

Shipyard workers union president George McPherson says the ships were sold off by the government for tens of millions of dollars less than what they are worth.

The ships were sold at AUCTION after months of trying to find a buyer. No one would pay more. It was an auction publicized around the world and only three bidders showed up.

BC does have good ship builders and they have made the ferries in use today. The fast ferries were made by a company that the NDP government made for this purpose. They thought they could create a new technology and thus a new industry. Not a very good role for government.

[caesar]

Yeah right. They did collarborate. The same group that bought the ships did offer much more earlier. There was just a lot of game playing and a desire to sell them cheaply to make the NDP look foolish. They only needed engine refits to make them usable.

You believe everything the Campbell government/ Campbell tell you. Like he only had 2 drinks.

Or that suddenly when he loses his drivers license; he suddenly needs round the clock police protection that would drive him everywhere.

[Stoker]

Yeah right. They did collarborate. The same group that bought the ships did offer much more earlier. There was just a lot of game playing and a desire to sell them cheaply to make the NDP look foolish. They only needed engine refits to make them usable.

If all the 'Cats needed was an "engine refit" (Which they did), why did no international buyers purchases them when the government put them up for auction?

But for $hits and giggles, can you prove this "game playing and a desire to sell them cheaply to make the NDP look foolish" really happened? (The NDP doesn't need anybody to make them look foolish mind you)

You believe everything the Campbell government/ Campbell tell you. Like he only had 2 drinks.

Or that suddenly when he loses his drivers license; he suddenly needs round the clock police protection that would drive him everywhere.