Toll roads

[GostHacked]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/11/21/f-road-tolls.html

Many drivers see road tolls as a nuisance, but they're not just a way to raise money — transportation experts say they’re a valuable way to regulate the transportation grid and streamline traffic.

Countries like Sweden and Great Britain have used tolls to ease congestion, curb carbon emissions, fund public transit and generally create a more comfortable and expedient commute for all travellers.

In Canada, however, tolls are a relative rarity — across the entire country, there are only 18 pay-as-you-go routes. What’s more, only two of them are roads (the 407 in Ontario and the Cobequid Pass in Nova Scotia), and 12 are bridges or tunnels on the Canada-U.S. border, like the Ambassador Bridge to Detroit from Windsor, Ont.

Tazpayers pay to keep roads updated and upgraded, why do we need toll roads? Does it solve anything or is it simply another cash grab? I might be willing to pay toll fees if I did not pay any taxes for the roads.

How much are you willing to dish out if anything? And how soon before all roads are toll roads?

[Battletoads]

Another way of shifting costs to the middle and lower classes...

[Boges]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/11/21/f-road-tolls.html

Tazpayers pay to keep roads updated and upgraded, why do we need toll roads? Does it solve anything or is it simply another cash grab? I might be willing to pay toll fees if I did not pay any taxes for the roads.

How much are you willing to dish out if anything? And how soon before all roads are toll roads?

Depends on the price. The 407 in the GTA is a fantastic highway but during rush hour it's extraordinarily expensive.

Simple $2-$5 tolls to get into large centres like Toronto aren't a bad thing. But when you consider GO-Train is packed already, it'll just be a revenue generating toll, it won't reduce congestion that much, unless they add more lanes to the 401 .

[Black Dog]

Depends on the price. The 407 in the GTA is a fantastic highway but during rush hour it's extraordinarily expensive.

Simple $2-$5 tolls to get into large centres like Toronto aren't a bad thing. But when you consider GO-Train is packed already, it'll just be a revenue generating toll, it won't reduce congestion that much, unless they add more lanes to the 401 .

Or funnel the money to improving regional transit.

[guyser]

Or funnel the money to improving regional transit.

Yup

At some point, a toll to get into downtown much like London (the real one, not Shady's lil 'burb) has had for some time now.

[The_Squid]

Why shouldn't users pay for the infrastructure to some degree? Car users are going to have to get used to paying extra for a city's transit infrastructure as well.

Improving transit and getting rid of cars from roads is good for a city. Gridlock is not.

[Boges]

Why shouldn't users pay for the infrastructure to some degree? Car users are going to have to get used to paying extra for a city's transit infrastructure as well.

Improving transit and getting rid of cars from roads is good for a city. Gridlock is not.

We've been through this many times. And no agreement will likely be found.

Drivers pay for taxes on umpteen things associated with driving their car. They also have to pay to park anywhere in Toronto.

To make the claim that Drivers don't pay their fair share is hilarious when you consider fares for the TTC are subsidized.

[DFCaper]

Having driven different toll roads, I am not sure how it reduces overall congestion of a city. Sure the 407 sometimes is not busy, but that isn't helping the 401.

I think Toronto needs to look at how to improve it's public transit. It's subway system is an embarrasment. I don't know why they pick on cars always to pay for public transit and bike lanes. Should be property taxes. I guess it is always easier to have the other guy pay as transit users likely don't have cars.. In Toronto anyway....

[Black Dog]

To make the claim that Drivers don't pay their fair share is hilarious when you consider fares for the TTC are subsidized.

You know what else is hilarious? Claims that the TTC is subsidized (when most of its revenue is from fares) and cars are not (even though everybody pays for cars, drivers and nondrivers alike).

[Boges]

You know what else is hilarious? Claims that the TTC is subsidized (when most of its revenue is from fares) and cars are not (even though everybody pays for cars, drivers and nondrivers alike).

Why because of the upkeep of roads?

[Black Dog]

Having driven different toll roads, I am not sure how it reduces overall congestion of a city. Sure the 407 sometimes is not busy, but that isn't helping the 401.

I think Toronto needs to look at how to improve it's public transit. It's subway system is an embarrasment. I don't know why they pick on cars always to pay for public transit and bike lanes. Should be property taxes. I guess it is always easier to have the other guy pay as transit users likely don't have cars.. In Toronto anyway....

Transit users pay for road construction and maintenance through general property taxes. So someone who rides the TTC is getting less for their tax dollars than a driver.

[Boges]

Transit users pay for road construction and maintenance through general property taxes. So someone who rides the TTC is getting less for their tax dollars than a driver.

The province contributes to upkeep of the roads too.

The 400 series highways are policed by the province, I would only assume they are responsible for their upkeep too.

How do you know said TTC user pays Toronto Property Taxes?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Boges

[Black Dog]

The province contributes to upkeep of the roads too.

The province doesn't spend its own money.

The 400 series highways are policed by the province, I would only assume they are responsible for their upkeep too.

Well, isn't that another subsidy?

How do you know said TTC user pays Toronto Property Taxes?

Regardless, if they use transit exclusively, they are subsidizing roads and paying for the TTC out of pocket.

[Boges]

Well, isn't that another subsidy?

Well if we're talking about a congestion toll to get into Toronto you'd be using a provincial highway to enter. So that money can only go to GO-Transit. Not the TTC.

You could only do it for the DVP and the Gardiner anyway because tolling someone for driving through Toronto is outrageous.

[Tilter]

Well if we're talking about a congestion toll to get into Toronto you'd be using a provincial highway to enter. So that money can only go to GO-Transit. Not the TTC.

You could only do it for the DVP and the Gardiner anyway because tolling someone for driving through Toronto is outrageous.

or they could build another road like the 407 to alleviate traffic in & out of TO and then sell it to another company (likely foreign) at 1/1000th of the actual cost to give the foreign company a chance to gouge the people who actually paid to build the road

[Black Dog]

Well if we're talking about a congestion toll to get into Toronto you'd be using a provincial highway to enter. So that money can only go to GO-Transit. Not the TTC.

It would be easy enough for the province to send some of that dough to the TTC. before Harris, they pitched in.

You could only do it for the DVP and the Gardiner anyway because tolling someone for driving through Toronto is outrageous.

Why? Does someone just passing through not contribute to congestion or something?

[Boges]

It would be easy enough for the province to send some of that dough to the TTC. before Harris, they pitched in.

Possibly but this is about reducing congestion on the 400 series highways and making people want to use public transit. If you live in Toronto chances are you already use the TTC to commute and if you don't your commute likely isn't that long.

Why? Does someone just passing through not contribute to congestion or something?

So would that include people that use the 401 as a trucking lane therefore increasing the price of goods?

And if Toronto can do it why can't every community that has a 400 series highway running through it charge a congestion toll?

Burlington, Milton, Mississauga, Oakville, Pickering, Ajax, Oshawa, Whitby, Hamilton, Kitchener.

I believe Mississauga and Brampton have as many, if not more, highways running through them as Toronto does.

You'd have to pass tolls up to 5 times for a one-hour drive.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Boges

[guyser]

Why? Does someone just passing through not contribute to congestion or something?

It doesn't make sense for someone coming from Oakville going to Oshawa by way of QEW/Gard/DVP or 403/401 route(s) to pay a toll.

The toll should be for access to the city.

[Black Dog]

Possibly but this is about reducing congestion on the 400 series highways and making people want to use public transit.

It's not just about the 400 highways.

If you live in Toronto chances are you already use the TTC to commute and if you don't your commute likely isn't that long.

Have you ridden the TTC of late?

So would that include people that use the 401 as a trucking lane therefore increasing the price of goods?

Come now, there's ways around this sort of thing.

And if Toronto can do it why can't every community that has a 400 series highway running through it charge a congestion toll?

Burlington, Milton, Mississauga, Oakville, Pickering, Ajax, Oshawa, Whitby, Hamilton, Kitchener.

I believe Mississauga and Brampton have as many, if not more, highways running through them as Toronto does.

You'd have to pass tolls up to 5 times for a one-hour drive.

It makes sense to charge congestion tolls where there's congestion. If there's no congestion...there's no charge.

[Black Dog]

It doesn't make sense for someone coming from Oakville going to Oshawa by way of QEW/Gard/DVP or 403/401 route(s) to pay a toll.

The toll should be for access to the city.

The toll should be for congestion. If you're passing through at rush hour, you're part of the problem.

[Boges]

It makes sense to charge congestion tolls where there's congestion. If there's no congestion...there's no charge.

So you do advocate basically making all 400 highways like the 407 then? That'll never happen.

During Rush Hour all 400 series highways in the GTA are packed. So it's a regional problem, not a Toronto problem. Not everyone on the highways are going into Toronto in the morning and leaving at nigh

The only solution I would see that's reasonable is a modest toll of, say, $2 a day that would fund future Projects. Charging people more before a proper infrastructure is in place is stupid because the GO-Transit system is already at capacity.

[guyser]

The toll should be for congestion. If you're passing through at rush hour, you're part of the problem.

Too simple and coming from you I am surprised.

I understand that passing by , not thru, is part of the congestion. But the congestion we suffer downtown specifically may not have to do with those passing by, but in those wishing to get off to access downtown..

The Bay/Yonge/York ramp backs up in the morning causing backups to Humber Bridge and beyond. It is those getting off to access dt that are causing it.The people going from Oshawa to Oakville would clear sail if not for the access backup.

The toll should be when you get off, not go by.

[Bonam]

Id be willing to pay a toll to access some kind of special/express/fast/private road. But if a given road is the only reasonable way to get somewhere, id say no. Transportation infrastructure is no less critical than any other major government expenditure and can be financed through taxes.

[Black Dog]

So you do advocate basically making all 400 highways like the 407 then? That'll never happen.

During Rush Hour all 400 series highways in the GTA are packed. So it's a regional problem, not a Toronto problem. Not everyone on the highways are going into Toronto in the morning and leaving at nigh

The only solution I would see that's reasonable is a modest toll of, say, $2 a day that would fund future Projects. Charging people more before a proper infrastructure is in place is stupid because the GO-Transit system is already at capacity.

I'm aware that it's a regional problem. I suppose the province could do something along the lines of what you suggest and toll the provincial highways to pay for regional infrastructure and transit improvements. The city could charge its own congestion pricing.

[GostHacked]

The toll should be for congestion. If you're passing through at rush hour, you're part of the problem.

Come to Ottawa, Rush Hour is from 3:30pm to about 6:00PM. If you are working 9-5, I guess you are also part of the problem. How do you suggest we avoid that? The only way to remedy that in some cases is to move closer to your work place. My commute is about 15 mins at the most even with some traffic. But living close to work might not be your choice of residence.

If you work downtown, and live downtown, the money you don't spend on commuting is spent on having a higher price to pay when living downtown. It's not cheap. You save time as well, but what is that worth to you?

The other problem is that city planners did not have enough foresight in many cases. The populations are booming and more and more are moving from rural to urban settings. This will create problems with more and more people moving to the city and working/commuting within the city.

We pay taxes for the roads that are built. One other thing is we need to do is to hold politicians and construction companies accountable for when things go past expected dates and way over budget and when they screw up.

Edited November 24, 2011 by GostHacked