Shwa Posted November 20, 2011 Report Posted November 20, 2011 another opinion derived from weak historical knowledge... At least I give facts. All you are doing is giving a meaningless ad hominem likely because you can't counter the facts, provide insight, or you are too intellectually lazy. Go ahead perfesser, what is the "weak historical knowledge?" The 21 years part or the economics part? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Posted November 20, 2011 ....There is a group of rich already in control of the world's economy. We're just waiting for them to pull the plug on the rest of us. This doesn't even make any sense. Why would the "rich cabal" want to destroy the very thing that makes them rich? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted November 20, 2011 Report Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) At least I give facts. All you are doing is giving a meaningless ad hominem likely because you can't counter the facts, provide insight, or you are too intellectually lazy. Go ahead perfesser, what is the "weak historical knowledge?" The 21 years part or the economics part? your facts are meaningless without context and background, making predictions of war based on your's and olp1fan conclusions are based on superficial high school knowledge of historical dates but nothing deeper...today's germany and europe bear no similarity to the european political, social or economic situation of the late 19th and early 20th century...there is as much chance of another european war now involving old antagonists as there is of cananda , britain and the usa re-fighting the war of 1812...which no chance at all..."ewww watch out for those nasty germans they're going marching again because they did it before"... Edited November 20, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Shwa Posted November 20, 2011 Report Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) your facts are meaningless without context and background The context and background of the facts I cited are with the conflict itself, i.e. WWII, as described in popular historical narrative. making predictions of war based on your's and olp1fan conclusions are based on superficial high school knowledge of historical dates but nothing deeper I never predicted a war, and you have no idea what my education background of historical knowledge is, so you are constructing a stawman. To me, that is intellectual laziness. today's germany and europe bear no similarity to the european political, social or economic situation of the late 19th and early 20th century According to who's analogies? Your own? You'll have to do much better than that. Kind of like Chamberlain's epic fail and he had more than a high school's worth of historical knowledge and passing notion of current events. there is as much chance of another european war now involving old antagonists as there is of cananda , britain and the usa re-fighting the war of 1812...which no chance at all... Firstly, let's clear this up. In effect you are saying there is no chance of a European War at all, ever, never again. That is forward thinking. I would like to agree with you. However, IF there is a European War, the chances are very high that the old antagonists will be involved. Not necessarily in the configuration of WWII, but in some configuration. The reference to 1812 is a joke, obviously. I am not saying that there will be a European War, but with the right kind of analogy, there are some pretty good reasons for people to be a little nervous about the implications of rampant inflation or a major economic depression since these events generally are associated with WWII. What do you think the main preventative against war in Europe. Let me guess: the European Union? "ewww watch out for those nasty germans they're going marching again because they did it before" "I believe it is peace for our time." Edited November 20, 2011 by Shwa Quote
wyly Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 The context and background of the facts I cited are with the conflict itself, i.e. WWII, as described in popular historical narrative. I never predicted a war, and you have no idea what my education background of historical knowledge is, so you are constructing a stawman. To me, that is intellectual laziness. According to who's analogies? Your own? You'll have to do much better than that. Kind of like Chamberlain's epic fail and he had more than a high school's worth of historical knowledge and passing notion of current events. Firstly, let's clear this up. In effect you are saying there is no chance of a European War at all, ever, never again. That is forward thinking. I would like to agree with you. However, IF there is a European War, the chances are very high that the old antagonists will be involved. Not necessarily in the configuration of WWII, but in some configuration. The reference to 1812 is a joke, obviously. I am not saying that there will be a European War, but with the right kind of analogy, there are some pretty good reasons for people to be a little nervous about the implications of rampant inflation or a major economic depression since these events generally are associated with WWII. What do you think the main preventative against war in Europe. Let me guess: the European Union? "I believe it is peace for our time." today's situation does not resemble that of the late 19th and early 20th century, and you can't isolate the inflation and depression 20's and 30's as the cause of ww2...it was much bigger than that probably closer to a 70years of nationalism, imperialism and militarism ...britain and france were as guilty as germany for the 2 ww's...yourself and olp1fan implying that because germany is involved it must revert to type and be involved in another war merely because they're germans is illogical...when it comes to blatant imperialism the germans are amateurs when compared to britain and france for starting wars...if someone were to suggest historical as evidence for future aggression it would carry more weight if applied to britain and france than to germany... olp1fan-"if history tells us anything about the future it's not going to be good and Germany will become the enemy yet again " shwa-"The Germans are very pacifist until they're not and they lack military power until they don't. "really shwa? from olp1fan i'm not surprised but I've come to expect a high level of critical thinking from you... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Shwa Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 today's situation does not resemble that of the late 19th and early 20th century, Again, it depends on which analogies one is using as their model. Of course, Europe of the 17th & 18th centuries didn't resemble the late 19th and early 20th, and Europe of the 15th and 16th centuries didn't resemble the 17th and 18th, etc. Yet in all of those centuries they have managed to have some far reaching, almost continental conflicts. It isn't smart to extend a historical analogie into the future of course, but would anyone truly be surprised if European countries A & B went at European counties C & D for a few years. and you can't isolate the inflation and depression 20's and 30's as the cause of ww2 That is why I used the term "heart" to suggest a analogy of a body, which suggests interconnected parts. Likewise one cannot isolate and remove the economic causual component either. it was much bigger than that probably closer to a 70years of nationalism, imperialism and militarism And at the heart of these causes, you will find ecomomic issues lurking close by. Especially with imperialism. ...britain and france were as guilty as germany for the 2 ww's... In all fairness, olp mentiones these countries alluding to a form of economic coercion. yourself and olp1fan implying that because germany is involved it must revert to type and be involved in another war merely because they're germans is illogical... I am not saying that Germany must "revert to type" but that if there was a European War, it would be hard to imagine Germany staying out of it since they are situated somewhat in the middle of things. Now whether they would be the cause or even a chief combatant is neither here nor there, but history shows us that when push comes to shove the Germans are very resourceful of getting themselves into the game pretty quickly. I am not sure if this is the "type" you are referring to. when it comes to blatant imperialism the germans are amateurs when compared to britain and france for starting wars... That was then, this is now. Imperialist aims within Europe - for any country - would not be a good sign. However, who knows, perhaps a modern state like Greece or Italy would agree to a period of consensual imperialism from the haves in the EU, until they get their houses in order. if someone were to suggest historical as evidence for future aggression it would carry more weight if applied to britain and france than to germany... To be fair, olp mentions both France and England and suggests either could be an aggressor. olp1fan-"if history tells us anything about the future it's not going to be good and Germany will become the enemy yet again Can't answer for olp, sorry. shwa-"The Germans are very pacifist until they're not and they lack military power until they don't. "really shwa? Do you dispute that Germany would allow herself to be overrun militarily if it came down to it? from olp1fan i'm not surprised but I've come to expect a high level of critical thinking from you... Again, I can't answer for olp. Quote
olp1fan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Posted November 21, 2011 Germanys calling the shots and making threats... even going so far as to say a collapse of the EU= war in Europe maybe thats grandstanding but to dismiss this outright would be foolish I don't understand how theres not even a small chance of war given the dire situation Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 Germanys calling the shots and making threats... even going so far as to say a collapse of the EU= war in Europe maybe thats grandstanding but to dismiss this outright would be foolish This stupid idea is dismissed outright. Hell, the American armed forces still "occupy" Germany. I don't understand how theres not even a small chance of war given the dire situation Correct...you simply do not understand such matters. Someday...maybe. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
olp1fan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Posted November 21, 2011 I never said it was for sure but time will tell if youre full of shit then Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 I never said it was for sure but time will tell if youre full of shit then LOL! The UK/US have over 20 separate military bases in Germany. There are over 50,000 US troops stationed there. Canada packed up and went home a long time ago. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
olp1fan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Posted November 21, 2011 LOL! The UK/US have over 20 separate military bases in Germany. There are over 50,000 US troops stationed there. Canada packed up and went home a long time ago. and what is your point? That wouldn't stop Germany if they really wanted war Quote
Rue Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) Yes, this is only leading one way which is to war... a lot of people disagree but if history tells us anything about the future it's not going to be good and Germany will become the enemy yet again OLP my take is different then yours. I believe the true superpower economically right now is China. I agree with those who say the Euro-North American economic market is collapsing because its a collapsing ponzi scheme. What we see on in the Euro-North American market is a domino effect collapse exactly the same as what happens in any pyramid or ponzi scheme. Things are collapsing no different then what happened to Bernie Maldoff's scheme. However there is one difference. In the case of individual ponzi schemes, its one sociopath running them. In the case of the marketplaces of Euro and North America the debt was fueled partly by incompetent short sighted regulators castrated by corupt politicians on behalf of their stooge financial interest groups that controlled them but also CHINA. China has engaged in predatory pricing for over 30 years running up huge credits in its favour and debts and massive trade imbalances with all the Euro nations, the US, Canada, athe world. China single handedly has used its state run monopoly on currency to create a collosal imbalance to seize control of the market places of the world-it has used the exact same model the Borg did in Star Trek-its worked as a collective with no individual cells or deviations and swallowed up anything that tried to compete with it. In short China is to the world markets what Walmart is to the retail markets. It is a large monopoly or cancer that grows and grows swallowing up any hint of competition. Europe has been bankrupt for over 20 years. So has the U.S. This is not anything new. The only thing new is China is now putting the screws to the world market places panicking it can't get its debts paid back. The biggest Ponzi scheme of them all is China. When China's economy collapses and it is set to implode then you might see a war but a war between Euro nations uh no. Those days are over. There might be a limited war over terrorism between West and East but the real war coming up is with China who have such a strangling hold on the world economy that we have two choices, either refuse to pay their debts and write them off forcing them into mad panic collapse and drastic retaliation or we continue as is and watch all the banks collapse one by one. We either head for a world bankruptcy melt down in one massive panic wave, or we do it slowly and orderly one step of collapse at a time regulating the collapse by writing off debts to China one stage at a time. China has 2 billion people. How long does anyone think they can continue running things as they do without an internal collapse-its entire economy is based on cheap cloning of competitor products because of its central government monopoly and ability to enslave its labour with the cheapest wages. Once there is no one buying its products because they have no ability to keep running up debt, look out. Edited November 21, 2011 by Rue Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 OLP my take is different then yours. I believe the true superpower economically right now is China. I agree with those who say the Euro-North American economic market is collapsing because its a collapsing ponzi scheme. China still ranks 3rd in GDP behind the EU and US, and only just ahead of Japan. The term 'ponzi scheme' continues to be overused. The so-called collapsing economies have many beneficiaries (for example, Greek civil servants, pensioners, investors and so on) while true ponzi schemes benefit a very few. We're suffering from poor economic planning, which isn't the same as a ponzi scheme. China has engaged in predatory pricing for over 30 years running up huge credits in its favour and debts and massive trade imbalances with all the Euro nations, the US, Canada, athe world. China single handedly has used its state run monopoly on currency to create a collosal imbalance to seize control of the market places of the world-it has used the exact same model the Borg did in Star Trek-its worked as a collective with no individual cells or deviations and swallowed up anything that tried to compete with it. In short China is to the world markets what Walmart is to the retail markets. It is a large monopoly or cancer that grows and grows swallowing up any hint of competition. China's emergence has many benefits to the G8 countries too. They are heavily invested there, for example. China has 2 billion people. How long does anyone think they can continue running things as they do without an internal collapse-its entire economy is based on cheap cloning of competitor products because of its central government monopoly and ability to enslave its labour with the cheapest wages. They actually build the competitor products, such as brand name electronics, clothing and manufactured goods. Once there is no one buying its products because they have no ability to keep running up debt, look out. If no one is buying Apple, Levis, Sony and so on then it won't be just China that will suffer. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 China still ranks 3rd in GDP behind the EU and US, and only just ahead of Japan. The term 'ponzi scheme' continues to be overused. The so-called collapsing economies have many beneficiaries (for example, Greek civil servants, pensioners, investors and so on) while true ponzi schemes benefit a very few. We're suffering from poor economic planning, which isn't the same as a ponzi scheme. It's the same. This global ponzi scheme still only benefits a few. How many in Greece will benefit from this last round? Don't forget that a former member of the European Central Bank is now in charge of Greece. The people that created the mess are now in charge. China's emergence has many benefits to the G8 countries too. They are heavily invested there, for example. They actually build the competitor products, such as brand name electronics, clothing and manufactured goods. So why can't we build them here in North America? Why does China produce most of our electronics? Cheap labour and lax environmental laws. If no one is buying Apple, Levis, Sony and so on then it won't be just China that will suffer. I find it ironic about Apple products. 'Designed by Apple in California' trying to make it look like an American product, but it's made in China. Like Blackberry designed in Canada, but made in Mexico. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 It's the same. This global ponzi scheme still only benefits a few. How many in Greece will benefit from this last round? Don't forget that a former member of the European Central Bank is now in charge of Greece. The people that created the mess are now in charge. How many have already benefited in terms of pensions and salaries ? They seem to be protesting that the so-called 'ponzi scheme' is coming to an end. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 How many have already benefited in terms of pensions and salaries ? They seem to be protesting that the so-called 'ponzi scheme' is coming to an end. Yes when the system collapses, the ponzi scheme is dead. These bankers are making one more smash and grab before it all goes tits up. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 The term 'ponzi scheme' continues to be overused.... Agreed...some people are just too intellectually lazy to think harder about the issue. Ponzi schemes do not pay out more benefits to those who have contributed less or nothing at all (i.e. government social programs). Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 Agreed...some people are just too intellectually lazy to think harder about the issue. Ponzi schemes do not pay out more benefits to those who have contributed less or nothing at all (i.e. government social programs). And Ponzi schemes do not pay out to millions of recipients as US and Canadian social security do. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 How many have already benefited in terms of pensions and salaries ? They seem to be protesting that the so-called 'ponzi scheme' is coming to an end. Bingo! There is no virtue in their cause, just the lament that the game did not go on for them. Where were these people when the truly "poor" of the world watched the middle class gobble up resources and opportunity? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GostHacked Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 And Ponzi schemes do not pay out to millions of recipients as US and Canadian social security do. You might be best to know what 'austerity measures' are. Quote
olp1fan Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Posted November 21, 2011 China is bankrupt, they are just doing a good job at keeping a lid on the news Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 You might be best to know what 'austerity measures' are. It doesn't matter if benefits are cut back, they will continue to pay out as they have been - therefore the term 'ponzi scheme' isn't apt. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 It doesn't matter if benefits are cut back, they will continue to pay out as they have been - therefore the term 'ponzi scheme' isn't apt. The payout only happens until the money is gone. If the benefits which you payed into are cut back, then there is nothing stopping them from taking it completely away from you. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Posted November 21, 2011 It doesn't matter if benefits are cut back, they will continue to pay out as they have been - therefore the term 'ponzi scheme' isn't apt. Correct, and to your earlier point, there are recipients who have paid little or nothing into the system, including young survivors and the disabled. That's an insult to any good 'Ponzi' scheme. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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