The GOP: The Party of pain, punishment, misery, and death

[Guest American Woman]

Because the actual number, which you conveniently refuse to recognize, is 0.125% of Canadians go to the United States for healthcare. So a more accurate statement would be that almost NO Canadians go to the US for healthcare.

Show me where I "refuse to recognize" the "actual number;" I haven't, because it's not relevant to the point I'm making. No matter what the number, to the people who were involved and are not a mere statistic, it doesn't matter - unless you think their lives don't matter?

Fact is, the government was, and is, spared putting the money into facilities/services that would provide care for all. Isn't that what your universal health care is supposed to be about? - providing care to everyone? - even the 0.125%, regardless of how insignificant you find them?

[Guest American Woman]

Yes you are!

The site you posted clearly states that people go into bankruptcy because they can't service their debts when they are not working due to illness.

Another site I posted clearly states that "it's unclear whether medical bills or the inability to earn sufficient income due to poor health is the true root cause." That clearly states that medical bills could be the root problem.

You not only have that problem in the United States, but the added problem of incurring the additional debts of the healthcare itself. I can tell you how many Canadians declared bankruptcy for their hospital bills: ZERO.

You'd be wrong. I've already explained why.

And since just as many Canadians declare bankruptcy as Americans, just how are Canadians any better of in that regard?

[cybercoma]

Show me where I "refuse to recognize" the "actual number;" I haven't, because it's not relevant to the point I'm making. No matter what the number, to the people who were involved and are not a mere statistic, it doesn't matter - unless you think their lives don't matter?

Fact is, the government was, and is, spared putting the money into facilities/services that would provide care for all. Isn't that what your universal health care is supposed to be about? - providing care to everyone? - even the 0.125%, regardless of how insignificant you find them?

You're making an argument about a systemic problem with healthcare delivery in Canada that drives people to seek care in the United States, but the number of Canadians that seek healthcare in the United States doesn't matter?

And you wonder why people think your arguments are stupid? You're not just ignoring insignificant facts. You're ignoring facts that are pertinent to the argument that you're making. Canadians aren't being driven to the United States for care, like you claim. You know how we know that? Because the amount of people that went to the United States expressly for medical care was 0.125% of those surveyed. That's all of the cases, not just the ones who were forced to go there because there was a lack of services in Canada. In reality, the number of people you are talking about is even less 1/8th of 1% of Canadians that used the healthcare system in the last year.

Meanwhile, you trumpet the overabundance of care in the United States, while also ignoring the fact that many Americans forego treatement due to financial concerns and others still will go to Mexico, Canada or other nations to get their care at a lower price.

Face it, the United States does not supplement our healthcare system. If anything, we are supplementing the US system by providing cheap prescriptions and less expensive care for those that come here, thus removing them from your system.

[cybercoma]

And since just as many Canadians declare bankruptcy as Americans, just how are Canadians any better of in that regard?

Because even the bankrupt ones get healthcare.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Face it, the United States does not supplement our healthcare system. If anything, we are supplementing the US system by providing cheap prescriptions and less expensive care for those that come here, thus removing them from your system.

Wrong...Americans underwrite the cost of prescription drugs in Canada which imports from American pharma. Canada is even dependent on American blood donations, which is how it got into a big blood bank scandal.

[Guest American Woman]

And you wonder why people think your arguments are stupid?

I wonder no such thing, considering the source .... and until you can respond without such insults, I have no interest in anything more you have to say about this issue.

Edited November 25, 2011 by American Woman

[olp1fan]

AW you are a spin doctor and your opinion that Canadians seek healthcare in Canada in droves even when stats prove you wrong is one of the reasons

the world does not like Americans

you're not exceptional, you're not special, your country is just ordinary

bugger off

[bush_cheney2004]

the world does not like Americans

Then why have more emigres chosen America over Canada? Still counting: 312,000,000 > 34,000,000.

[olp1fan]

Then why have more emigres chosen America over Canada? Still counting: 312,000,000 > 34,000,000.

climate and that is the only reason

plus it helps your totals when you don't even enforce your southern border

Edited November 25, 2011 by olp1fan

[bush_cheney2004]

climate and that is the only reason

It is colder where I live than in Toronto or Vancouver.

plus it helps your totals when you don't even enforce your southern border

Or northern border....Mexicans or Canadians...makes no difference.

[guyser]

the world does not like Americans

you're not exceptional, you're not special, your country is just ordinary

Hmm....and nobody likes an arrogant prick when they spout off without the facts.

started conducting the survey, the U.S. has been named the most admired country in the world, climbing six spots in the rankings from 2008.

An increase in U.S. popularity meant a decrease for its neighbor Canada. The country dropped three spots.

bugger off

Stay classy.

Edited November 25, 2011 by guyser

[olp1fan]

Hmm....and nobody likes an arrogant prick when they spout off without the facts.

Stay classy.

lmao you post a 2008 poll and expect it to still be relevant

[bush_cheney2004]

lmao you post a 2008 poll and expect it to still be relevant

That's OK...we also have 2010 census data. Is that relevant enough for Ya?

[Argus]

This point is lost on many Canadians....they feel that Americans should gladly accept the limitations of their system in exchange for the ideology of "universal access" and state mandated compensation for a catalog of procedures.

Drivel. I've said many times before that some of the European countries do it better than us.

But for efficiency sake, no one anywhere is as inefficient in the use of medical resources as the US. No other system has anywhere close to as much red tape and administrative costs, and no other system is designed to pour profit into the hands of wealthy health corporations while screwing over the health of the common citizenry. Your health care system is just one of the ways the wealthy screw over the ordinary American. It requires the ordinary family to fork over a far higher share of their income for health protection while providing them with far less health protection than any other western nation.

The majority of Americans seems to realize this, and want a national health care system, but the wealthy elites say no, and so it's no.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Argus

[cybercoma]

I wonder no such thing, considering the source .... and until you can respond without such insults, I have no interest in anything more you have to say about this issue.

Yeah, I'm sure it has everything to do with that "insult" and nothing at all to do with the fact that the rest of that post shows that your argument is entirely incorrect and, in typical American Woman fashion, you refuse to acknowledge it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Drivel. I've said many times before that some of the European countries do it better than us.

Who are you?

The majority of Americans seems to realize this, and want a national health care system, but the wealthy elites say no, and so it's no.

The Americans already have a national single payer system that dwarfs anything in Canada. I don't care what you do in Canada, but keep universal CommieCare to yourself.

[Argus]

It is a big deal if you're giving birth or have just given birth and there are no beds and/or neo-natal care available.

If you're a Canadian, one will be found for you by the system. On rare occasions, the system might even find something in the US for you, but that's usually not necessary. Yes, there are some shortages. Yes, there are occasional problems. But then again, our system doesn't drop kick the uninsured out the back door of the hospital to die either. Nor does it tell people with cancer that they've used up their insurable benefits and are now on their own.

Your bleating about the superiority of American health care is not matched by any statistics or studies. Canadians live longer than Americans and have a lower infant mortality rate. Rates of success for various emergency situations and other health problems are comparable.

Even though we spend a lot less money than you, and cover all citizens, not just some.

[Argus]

Obviously no one is saying that every Canadian has long waits/has to go elsewhere for care. That your wife didn't is great; others haven't been as fortunate. That's all that's being said. There are good points and negative points to both of our systems,

The only good point to be said for your system is that if you're rich you get first class treatment. That's really just about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

The only good point to be said for your system is that if you're rich you get first class treatment. That's really just about it.

Good enough for "rich" Canadians not willing to settle for less than that (Chretien, Williams, Stronach).

[guyser]

lmao you post a 2008 poll and expect it to still be relevant

Hang on....the insert says "climbing six spots in the rankings from 2008. "

That means 'since" .

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah, I'm sure it has everything to do with that "insult" and nothing at all to do with the fact that the rest of that post shows that your argument is entirely incorrect and, in typical American Woman fashion, you refuse to acknowledge it.

FYI, I didn't read past the insult. In "typical American Woman fashion," I didn't waste any more of my time on it. I would have been more than willing to read and address your "argument" had you been able to present it without the insults, as everything I've said is entirely correct. If you want to refute what I say, do so without insults; otherwise I'm done with you, as I'm done with others here who cannot seem to engage in civil, adult conversation in response.

[Guest American Woman]

The majority of Americans seems to realize this, and want a national health care system, but the wealthy elites say no, and so it's no.

This is where you are wrong, Argus. I've already said it once and I'll say it again. Americans have different ideas of what they want. They don't have a plan in mind that the "wealthy elite" say "no" to. I'll repeat it again. Many have great health coverage through their employer. They don't want a "downgrade" from what they have. These people are far from wealthy, yet they get great care. The middle class are concerned about how much taxes would be raised and what they would be getting in return. You do pay taxes, and those taxes, if not going to the government, could go towards purchasing health insurance, which is what some people do. Then we have the uninsured in the low economic group who do receive health care from the government. They have great health care from "the government." And no one wants to see the level of health care/services we have available drop. It's not a simple matter of just putting a national health care program in place - we want it to be a really good program, that addresses everyone, addresses all the concerns. That's what the American people as a whole want, and the "wealthy elite" are not the ones holding it back. That's just more of the "blame the rich" mentality.

The only good point to be said for your system is that if you're rich you get first class treatment. That's really just about it.

That comment, if you truly believe it, shows how little you actually know about it. The health care situation in our country right now is complex, and your statement is flat out false.

[jbg]

They have great health care from "the government." And no one wants to see the level of health care/services we have available drop. It's not a simple matter of just putting a national health care program in place - we want it to be a really good program, that addresses everyone, addresses all the concerns. That's what the American people as a whole want, and the "wealthy elite" are not the ones holding it back. That's just more of the "blame the rich" mentality.

Let's just say we don't want to destroy a great system to create a mediocre one, just for the sake of change.

[cybercoma]

FYI, I didn't read past the insult. In "typical American Woman fashion," I didn't waste any more of my time on it. I would have been more than willing to read and address your "argument" had you been able to present it without the insults, as everything I've said is entirely correct. If you want to refute what I say, do so without insults; otherwise I'm done with you, as I'm done with others here who cannot seem to engage in civil, adult conversation in response.

Suit yourself. I have no interest arguing with somebody that refuses to acknowledge the basic facts that are infront of her face. You have 1/8 of 1% specifically seeking healthcare in the United States and it's unclear how many of those went to the US due to lack of services in Canada. It's safe to assume that it's not all of them It could be none of them for all that we know. Yet, you'll continuing parroting complete lies about Canadians having a lack of services, so they're flocking to the US for care. I'm sorry, but you're either a liar or an idiot, take your pick.

[Argus]

Wrong...Americans underwrite the cost of prescription drugs in Canada which imports from American pharma.

LOL. Underwrite the costs?! What you mean is that Canada's health agencies, like those everywhere else in the world, negotiate discount prices with the big pharmaceutical manufacturers. Fortunately, those big corporations don't need to worry about their profits since they bought up enough US politicians to get a law passed which says that your medicare isn't allowed to try to negotiate prices, but must take what they can get. Big profits there for the pharmaceuticals! And who pays for it? The US taxpayer!

Is that what you meant by 'underwriting'?

Or maybe you meant how the US taxpayer actually funds almost all the important research, then lets the big pharmaceuticals patent the resulting drugs and charge hundreds of dollars a pill for them -- to medicare!

And this is one of the ways ordinary Americans get screwed over by the big corporate interests and the corrupt politicians they buy.