AngusThermopyle Posted January 1, 2012 Report Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) Granted that BD does sound good I still prefer the sound of Vynil. Having said that I do have some pretty damn good recordings on BD though. When it comes to specs they can be a bit misleading, the ultimate test of any audio gear is the listening test. Many times I've heard equipement with the same or very similar specs yet one will sound better than the other. Is this purely subjective? I can't really answer that so I just depend on my ears and what sounds good to them. Yesterday we went to the 400 Flea Market and I picked up ZZ Top Live in Texas and the new Kate Bush 50 Words For Snow Both are heavy Vynil (180 gr) and both sound exceptionally good, especially the Kate Bush. If you guys think the NAD Masters series look good you should check out the new stuff from Luxman, beautifull gear. Sadly though it'll cost about $17,000 to get into a nice integrated amp. Thats too rich for my blood. This is why I like the Roksan stuff, it sounds very good and an integrated runs about $1700 or so, much more reasonable. Still, every time I go into All That Jazz I can't help ogling the beautifull Mastersound integrated tube amp he has for sale, at $4700 ogling is all I'll be doing. Yes Bill large drivers will push a lot of air but I've heard plenty of speakers that use smaller drivers and sound exceptional for instance the Revolvers I mentioned, beautifull sound. Generally Canadian made speakers like Paradigm, Axiom, Mirage etc are very good, another one is Totem, really nice stuff. Of course as with most things the sky really is the limit with audio, for instance if you are so inclined you can spend around $300,000 for a pair of Goldmund speakers. Not being that wealthy I have to limit myself in my expenditures, oh well, we should give thanks for what we have I suppose. For those of you who may be interested this is a great site. Its sort of like a Kijjiji for audio nuts. Good Site For Audio The forums are pretty good as well and a lot of good info is availlable for those with questions. Edited January 1, 2012 by AngusThermopyle Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
sharkman Posted January 1, 2012 Report Posted January 1, 2012 I had an old Luxman receiver back in the day, the R-115 I believe. Never could afford speakers to do it justice back then, nothing over 600, so I wasn't able to really take advantage of its top notch amp section. A really nice piece, though. For an integrated amp, I've got my eye on the latest HK offering, the 990. Apparently it has similar topology to some of their great amps of the past. Quote
jbg Posted January 2, 2012 Report Posted January 2, 2012 Not until they distribute in a lossless format. Most kids today downloading MP3s don't know what a good recording sounds like. Even CDs have their faults. I'm going back to vinyl! Ironically, BestBuy and other stores have recently started selling vinyl players, albeit with computer hookups. As for the demise of the CD it will go unlamented, providing that the equivalent of liner notes are provided by PDF downloads for buyers of i-Tunes downloads. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
AngusThermopyle Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Ironically, BestBuy and other stores have recently started selling vinyl players, albeit with computer hookups. You're right, I've noticed those TT's for sale at those stores. The downside is that they're junk and as such just won't give you a good listening experience. A good table is worth every penny. For instance at FS they sell a Denon TT for about $300, while it is better than the others they offer its still junk. For the same price you can get into a table by Pro-Ject that is far superior and will give excellent performance. If USB is a must have they also make a great USB equipped table and also a USB equipped phono stage. Honestly, I can't adequately describe just how sublime the sound of good vynil playing on a good table is. you have to hear it to believe it. Of course the rest of the system plays a major role in that sound as well. On Friday I picked up my new NAD T748 receiver and was most impressed by the jump in sound quality. It feature an analogue bypass so I can disable the digital processing for my TT and tape deck. Thats another thing, it has an actual tape loop so now I can hook up my Braun Atellier C1 casette deck properly. Its far and away superior to the Denon I had ( the Denon now belongs to the GF). As for digital, well I have a Panasonic Blue Ray, its okay but I'm thinking of buying a modified Marantz SACD player, its used and costs $650 but new it was a $1300 unit and has been modified with upgraded DAC's and Kimber Kable throughout. The mods alone cost over $1200 so actually it really is quite a steal. This player does a fine job with digital so I will continue to buy CD's but my first love is vynil. So I spread the gospel of vynil whenever and wherever I can. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Agnus.... headphones. My pal, (the other half of ohm) bought some of those Dr. Dre Beats headphones. I dismissed these items before, because they were flimsy and fragile and you needed batteries for the bass. These new ones, all metal durable, a little heavy .. but wow.... the sound on these things are really really good. Simply blown away with the sound on them. But they are not cheap. If you have not heard them, I do suggest giving them a shot. Quote
jbg Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 You're right, I've noticed those TT's for sale at those stores. The downside is that they're junk and as such just won't give you a good listening experience. A good table is worth every penny. For instance at FS they sell a Denon TT for about $300, while it is better than the others they offer its still junk. For the same price you can get into a table by Pro-Ject that is far superior and will give excellent performance. If USB is a must have they also make a great USB equipped table and also a USB equipped phono stage.Actually the "junk" sounded better than my old Sony 1969 turntable did before I scrapped it. I scrapped it not for obsolescence because a rubber belt dried out and no replacement was available.I really don't think the modern retro TT's are that bad. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
AngusThermopyle Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Actually I've been wondering about those Dr Dre cans. Most of the reviews I've seen panned them pretty badly but perhaps the new ones are improved over the last ones. I'll have to give them a listen. Recently I heard some Grado cans down at All That Jazz, I believe they were the 325si model. Fantastic sound but at a pretty steep price ($500) I know that Gord (the store owner) will sell them to me for about $400. I've been considering them for a future purchase. Certainly handy for when the GF wants to sleep and I want to listen to music. Right now I have Sennhiesers and I'm not too happy with them so I pretty much never use them. On a different but related note he recently sold me some speaker wire. Its from QED, the guys who made the first ever dedicated speaker wire back in 1970, nice stuff. The list price is $3.75 a foot and he sold me 50' for $40, an excellent deal. Really, this little store in Cookstown is exceptional, the owner, Gord is a really nice guy and always offers you a cup of coffee and some cookies when you go in, just a great guy to deal with. His store has now become my favourite store and I spend time there a few times a week just chatting and looking through the albums. I highly recommend it to anyone in the market for some new gear. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
AngusThermopyle Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Actually the "junk" sounded better than my old Sony 1969 turntable did before I scrapped it. I scrapped it not for obsolescence because a rubber belt dried out and no replacement was available. Well I supose its all relative and one mans junk is anothers great find. For instance my old TT cost more than three times as much as my new one, yet my new one is actually far superior to the old one. All I can sugest is that you listen to a good TT, you'll probably be amazed by the sound. Now I kind of regret getting rid of my old TT since the GF wants a new one to replace hers with. The good news is that I can get a nice Dual for her complete with a phono stage and good cartridge for a hundred bucks, good deal. Probably a better fit for her than the Rega anyway as the Rega was a manual TT and the Dual is a semi auto. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Angus, I think the main beef with the Beats was the flimsy build quality and materials they used. They sounded good apparently, but the frame broke quite easily. I am thinking of selling my AKGs now for the Beats. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Agnus.... headphones. My pal, (the other half of ohm) bought some of those Dr. Dre Beats headphones. I dismissed these items before, because they were flimsy and fragile and you needed batteries for the bass. These new ones, all metal durable, a little heavy .. but wow.... the sound on these things are really really good. Simply blown away with the sound on them. But they are not cheap. If you have not heard them, I do suggest giving them a shot. I would suggest spending some time researching headphones at www.headphone.com They have tons of info on what makes a good set of headphones. Dre Beats are alright, but they're way overpriced and the sound reproduction is not "true". The bass is output at a higher level than other tones, which is good if that's what you want. It's just not what the sampler in the studio mixed. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Actually I've been wondering about those Dr Dre cans. Most of the reviews I've seen panned them pretty badly but perhaps the new ones are improved over the last ones. I'll have to give them a listen. Recently I heard some Grado cans down at All That Jazz, I believe they were the 325si model. Fantastic sound but at a pretty steep price ($500) I know that Gord (the store owner) will sell them to me for about $400. I've been considering them for a future purchase. Certainly handy for when the GF wants to sleep and I want to listen to music. Right now I have Sennhiesers and I'm not too happy with them so I pretty much never use them. On a different but related note he recently sold me some speaker wire. Its from QED, the guys who made the first ever dedicated speaker wire back in 1970, nice stuff. The list price is $3.75 a foot and he sold me 50' for $40, an excellent deal. Really, this little store in Cookstown is exceptional, the owner, Gord is a really nice guy and always offers you a cup of coffee and some cookies when you go in, just a great guy to deal with. His store has now become my favourite store and I spend time there a few times a week just chatting and looking through the albums. I highly recommend it to anyone in the market for some new gear. The Grados are excellent. Skip the Dre Beats. I bought a pair of Grado iggys for my iPod. They're some of the most "true" headphones for the price. I would have liked to get a set of Etymotics MC5 earbuds, but they're tough to find in Canada. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 I would suggest spending some time researching headphones at www.headphone.com They have tons of info on what makes a good set of headphones. Dre Beats are alright, but they're way overpriced and the sound reproduction is not "true". The bass is output at a higher level than other tones, which is good if that's what you want. It's just not what the sampler in the studio mixed. You are right on the bass. It is a little overpowering. So much that when I take them off to listen back to the KRKs, the bass seems to disappear. But aside from that, the mids and highs are very good. Quote
Wild Bill Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) On a different but related note he recently sold me some speaker wire. Its from QED, the guys who made the first ever dedicated speaker wire back in 1970, nice stuff. The list price is $3.75 a foot and he sold me 50' for $40, an excellent deal. Really, this little store in Cookstown is exceptional, the owner, Gord is a really nice guy and always offers you a cup of coffee and some cookies when you go in, just a great guy to deal with. His store has now become my favourite store and I spend time there a few times a week just chatting and looking through the albums. I highly recommend it to anyone in the market for some new gear. Oh dear! Angus, I wouldn't bother with high priced speaker wire if I were you! This is another of those "mojo" marketing scams out there. I know a lot of people believe in it but it not only has ZERO basis in physics it actually contradicts it! It has also been disproven many times, occasionally spectacularly. You see, wire has absolutely no tonal qualities. Tone refers to changes in portions of the frequency range. Wire is simply a resistance. It opposes current flow with no regard at all to audio frequencies. To a resistance, they are all the same. Some people claim to hear a difference but their ears are being fooled. Thin wire has higher resistance than thick wire. This means that once you start to use more than 10 or 20 feet the loss in power can become noticeable. So your ears might hear a drop in volume. Believe me, Angus, there is LESS to substantiate this myth than for astrology! If you do some googling you will come across a speaker wire "shoot out" held some years back. I believe it was some engineering students who rigged up a test setup where different types of wire could be switched between speakers and invited some industry "gurus" from the hifi magazine world to participate. The hilarious result is that they almost all chose the same type of wire - which turned out to be pieces of barbed wire from a farmer's fence! Sonic Frontiers in Oakville used to sell a brand of speaker wire for $400 per FOOT, U$D! I guess when you pay that much you can't help but convince yourself you're hearing an improvement! As a bit of history, in the golden years of hifi, back in the 50's, no one thought about the speaker wire, usually just using whatever was at hand. Since the larger speaker cabinets were of much higher efficiency than modern cabinets, home hifi amplifiers often ran only 10 or 20 watts. That was plenty to make things LOUD! Then came the 60's, the era of rock and roll and outdoor concerts. Soundmen soon realized that they were losing much power in their speaker wires, since they could be LONG! The resistance was adding up to several ohms and the standard impedance of the loudspeakers was 8 ohms. This meant that as much as half of the power could be wasted as heat in the wires! Power amps were still expensive back then so this was not very cost effective. It was Celestion Speakers (then called Rollo) in Ipswich, England that came up with the 15 ohm voice coil. Using nearly double the speaker impedance meant the loss in the speaker wires was much less of a percentage of the total power. Simple lamp cord of at least 16 gauge is more than adequate up to 50 feet. What IS important is that the connections are proper and do not reverse the phasing between the cabinets. So put your money into your turntable or whatever, Angus. Or some good beer! Edited January 16, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
The_Squid Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks for the post WB. Very timely for me.... A few months ago I bought a speaker set and a new receiver to upgrade my surround system. I've been wondering about the speaker wire... not because it sounds bad, but could it be improved with "better" wire? The wire runs about 18 feet. I used the wire that came with the speakers. This definitely needs some more research.... Quote
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Good post, WB! A couple other considerations I would like to add: -> If you're running the wires in your walls, you want to make sure that they're rated for in-wall use. Ok. This might be nitpicky, but there's a very good reason for it. Lamp cord is not fire-rated. During a fire, the flame will spread down the wire very quickly into other rooms. You want to slow the spread of fire wherever possible and it's actually part of the building code that even speaker wire must be rated for use in the walls. -> Even WB was being generous with 50', I think. If I'm not mistaken the actual distance of your voltage drop is somewhere around 25m (82ish feet). Monster is absurd with their speaker gauges. There is absolutely no need for 10ga speaker wire. Something that's 18ga is perfectly fine; however... -> If electrical wires will be running near your speaker wire, especially parallel to your speaker wire, the signal can be affected by electromagnetic interference. I presume the study above using barbed-wire (hilarious, btw ) did not take into consideration electromagnetic interference. To avoid this, you may want to consider a wire that is insulted to prevent that kind of interference. If you're not going to be crossing very many electrical cables, then you don't need to worry about it. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks for the post WB. Very timely for me.... A few months ago I bought a speaker set and a new receiver to upgrade my surround system. I've been wondering about the speaker wire... not because it sounds bad, but could it be improved with "better" wire? The wire runs about 18 feet. I used the wire that came with the speakers. This definitely needs some more research.... An aside to this is video wire. Have you ever seen those demos in Futures Shop (they probably don't do them anymore), where they show you how much better Monster Cable looks? They're being deceptive. Those rigs have Monster Cable component or HDMI cables hooked up on the better looking side, while they use standard RCA composite cable on the other. It's deceptive because they're not comparing apples to apples. They're using a lower grade hookup (composite) and comparing it to a better connection (component or HDMI). I suspect if you use a dirt cheap grade of HDMI or component cable and put it side-by-side with Monster Cable version of the same connection, you would be hard pressed to notice a difference with the naked eye. I've never tested this hypothesis, but it would be interesting to see. Long-story short, I believe the type of connection is probably a lot more important than what you're connecting it with. Quote
sharkman Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 As far as headphones go, I was looking for a pair of noise cancelling phones, and one of the best on the market is Bose QC 15. They sound pretty good too, though I've not compared to other brands. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Oh dear! Angus, I wouldn't bother with high priced speaker wire if I were you! This is another of those "mojo" marketing scams out there. I know a lot of people believe in it but it not only has ZERO basis in physics it actually contradicts it! It has also been disproven many times, occasionally spectacularly. Correct ... All you need is oxygen free copper wires with lots of strands at a good gauge. One cannot hear the difference at all between similar cables. I have 1/4" jacks for the KRKs and the mixer. The cables were about 10 bucks each 20 feet long with 1/4" jacks on each end. The only thing you really need to do is get proper gauged wire for your speakers. Small gauge wire will not power large drivers properly, so you get distortion. It's all about power delivery to the speakers. Quote
The_Squid Posted January 16, 2012 Report Posted January 16, 2012 Good post, WB! A couple other considerations I would like to add: -> If you're running the wires in your walls, you want to make sure that they're rated for in-wall use. Ok. This might be nitpicky, but there's a very good reason for it. Lamp cord is not fire-rated. During a fire, the flame will spread down the wire very quickly into other rooms. You want to slow the spread of fire wherever possible and it's actually part of the building code that even speaker wire must be rated for use in the walls. -> Even WB was being generous with 50', I think. If I'm not mistaken the actual distance of your voltage drop is somewhere around 25m (82ish feet). Monster is absurd with their speaker gauges. There is absolutely no need for 10ga speaker wire. Something that's 18ga is perfectly fine; however... -> If electrical wires will be running near your speaker wire, especially parallel to your speaker wire, the signal can be affected by electromagnetic interference. I presume the study above using barbed-wire (hilarious, btw ) did not take into consideration electromagnetic interference. To avoid this, you may want to consider a wire that is insulted to prevent that kind of interference. If you're not going to be crossing very many electrical cables, then you don't need to worry about it. Thanks Cybercoma. more good info. I am not running them in-wwall, so I am ok there. I DO run one of the wires near the base of an electrical heat base-board though.... I will look at this. Perhaps take a different route, since those baseboard heaters can put out some EMF. Quote
Wild Bill Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Correct ... All you need is oxygen free copper wires with lots of strands at a good gauge. One cannot hear the difference at all between similar cables. I have 1/4" jacks for the KRKs and the mixer. The cables were about 10 bucks each 20 feet long with 1/4" jacks on each end. The only thing you really need to do is get proper gauged wire for your speakers. Small gauge wire will not power large drivers properly, so you get distortion. It's all about power delivery to the speakers. No GH! You do not need "oxygen free copper wires". You can use fence wire! You can use ANYTHING that is electrically conductive! It doesn't matter as long as current will flow. Using the resistance wire that lights up in your toaster might waste a lot of power but it will do NOTHING to change the tone! And to Mr. Squid - this does NOT need more research! Wire, conductivity and resistance are fundamental basic Laws of the Universe! It was all researched long ago, by gentlemen like Mr. Ohm! No one is ever going to discover a type of wire that sounds better. The phenomenon simply doesn't exist! It would be like looking for a can of steam, or striped paint - crazy as a soup sandwich! The chances of RFI or hum pickup are actually significant but only in specific cases. If you don't hear any hum or RadioFrequencyInterference then don't worry about it! If you are picking up your neighbour's CB radio then a shielded cable can help. Radio pickup is ALWAYS the fault of YOUR setup, not the transmitter's! The speaker wires can pick it up and couple it back into your amplifier or receiver, where the circuitry may rectify it and amplify it as audio. Manufacturers of hifi equipment could prevent this problem with about 50 cents worth of capacitors or coils to block it out but in all the years of hifi very few ever have. Instead, they count on the fact that the problem is not very common so it won't likely affect their sales. In the hifi world of audiophiles, few customers have any real technical knowledge so the way to convince them to buy your product is NOT with specs! The customer doesn't understand them anyway! No, the preferred approach is to first baffle him with technobabble and then charge him a lot of money! Nobody wants to believe that he spent a lot of money and things still sound the same! Edited January 17, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
The_Squid Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 And to Mr. Squid - this does NOT need more research! I meant more research by me.... I need to learn more about it! Again, thanks for the good info! Quote
cybercoma Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 That's so very true, WB. Any of the websites that actually rate speakers and equipment reveal that there is little to no correlation between "quality" of the sound output and the price of various products. Like I mentioned earlier, the Etymotic MC5 earbuds are something like 85% true and right around $100 for a pair. There are headphones that are 10x the price that are "worse" or less true than the MC5s. It's well worth doing research before diving into any stereo purchases. Quote
huh Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 There is no difference in output quality using any digital cable, period. Analog signals, can possibly/maybe be affected by different materials, however most testing shows no audible difference between the highest end speaker wire and lamp cord. The quality of the speakers and the power available to them are really all that matters so long as you are using a cd/dvd/bluray source. FYI, Bose is garbage. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 No GH! You do not need "oxygen free copper wires". You can use fence wire! You can use ANYTHING that is electrically conductive! It doesn't matter as long as current will flow. Using the resistance wire that lights up in your toaster might waste a lot of power but it will do NOTHING to change the tone! The reason copper is used, flexible, low cost, least impedance. You COULD use fencing wire,.... if you really wanted to. but let's stay within the confines of practicality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire And if you are running the wires near other electrical items that could cause EMF, just get shielded wires and you are good. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 17, 2012 Report Posted January 17, 2012 FYI, Bose is garbage. I have the same impression with Bose. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.