The TTC thread

Michael Hardner · November 25, 2011

Another nail in the coffin of Rob Ford's "no service cuts, guaranteed" promise, another middle finger to anyone who doesn't drive in this city. And for a mere $15 million in savings (or roughly a third of what the now-dead VRT brought in). All this while the TTC considers a fare increase on a system that already derives the bulk of its revenue from fares.

To their credit, the TTC has initiated town halls and seems to be trying to genuinely reach out. Communications are improving, but sore spots remain: the antiquated fare system, and infrequent service due to rush hour traffic continues to be a problem that isn't either acknowledged, or at least hasn't been solved.

cybercoma · November 25, 2011

The above ground portion will occupy space that roads could be occupying. Or did you forget that roads can be expanded? Oops.

It's called urban planning. When the roads are congested and people see the streetcars moving freely, they will be more likely to use them. This is part of the reasoning for allowing the city busses to travel on the shoulders of the highway to bypass traffic.

cybercoma · November 25, 2011

More lanes = less congestion. It's pretty simple.

Have you ever read anything about urban planning? More lanes = more congestion, but thanks for coming out.

Black Dog · November 25, 2011

To their credit, the TTC has initiated town halls and seems to be trying to genuinely reach out. Communications are improving, but sore spots remain: the antiquated fare system, and infrequent service due to rush hour traffic continues to be a problem that isn't either acknowledged, or at least hasn't been solved.

What's interesting to me is that despite all the knocks on the TTC, ridership is actually up 5% from last year. I wonder if that's due to population growth, road congestion (read: people giving up on cars), the economy or what, but it's pretty ridiculous to target such an -ahem- essential service for across-the-board cuts.

Archanfel · December 1, 2011

What's interesting to me is that despite all the knocks on the TTC, ridership is actually up 5% from last year. I wonder if that's due to population growth, road congestion (read: people giving up on cars), the economy or what, but it's pretty ridiculous to target such an -ahem- essential service for across-the-board cuts.

Interesting development recently. HP's touchpad was the best selling tablet behind the iPad for the last while. I am guessing based on your logic, HP should have made more of those and sell them at a huge loss? If somebody is willing to sell a product or provide a service at a loss, of course people will take advantage of that. If TTC provides a service so essential to people, then I am sure people wouldn't mind paying the market price for it.

ps. No, I didn't support making the TTC as an essential service. It was a short sighted knee jerk reaction.

Boges · December 1, 2011

I think this is a pretty harsh rebuke of how the TTC is run.

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1094531--ttc-may-not-run-the-eglinton-crosstown-lrt?bn=1

The biggest, most expensive public transit project in Toronto’s recent history could be built and operated without any involvement by the TTC.
Metrolinx is considering a public-private partnership to design, finance, build and even potentially operate and maintain the provincially funded $8.2 billion Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown light rail line.

It’s not clear what adding a private operator to the Toronto transit equation would mean to riders, but transit officials say a complex agreement between the TTC and an alternate provider would have to be worked out to ensure commuters could move easily between two systems. Fare payments, transfer points and protocols for service disruptions and public complaints would all need to be considered.

If Metrolinx decides on a private partnership, it would be the biggest public transit project in the province to be administered by Infrastructure Ontario, the government agency that handles alternative financing and

Can't blame this one on Ford. This is provincial organization that wants nothing to do with the TTC even thought the rail system will be for Toronto.

Michael Hardner · December 1, 2011

Can't blame this one on Ford. This is provincial organization that wants nothing to do with the TTC even thought the rail system will be for Toronto.

Well, you could conceivably blame him for throwing out the joint planning that has happened, and perhaps pushing them away from dealing with the city.

Black Dog · December 2, 2011

Well, you could conceivably blame him for throwing out the joint planning that has happened, and perhaps pushing them away from dealing with the city.

Yup. The province wants to make sure it's $8 billion investment is protected should Ford change his mind and, say, decide to replace the subways with actual rocketships.

Black Dog · December 2, 2011

After reading this piece from Ford syncophant/horrible person Sue-Ann Levy, I'm left wondering if she's stupid or merely ignorant.

Once again in 2012, they have opted to balance their $1.5-billion operating budget squarely on the backs of commuters by cutting peak-period bus and streetcar service and raising fares 10-cents.

Um? Sue-Ann? You are aware that the cuts were mandated by your boy Robbo, yeah?

While in Madrid in September I had the occasion to use the subway system there. It is completely automated and even though all signage was in Spanish, we had no problem purchasing a ticket and finding our way around.
The subway stations were spic-and-span with garbage bins no more than 4.5 metres apart.

It made me realize the possibilities here are endless.

Actually the possibilities are finite given the fiscal austerity right-wing politicos and their media bootlickers demand these days. Of course if levy did her homework, she'd see that comparing Madrid to Toronto is a mug's game.

Link

In Madrid, underground construction was cheap, subways were relatively easy to build and the money was available for a continuous program of expansion. However, even Madrid is now embracing the concept of “Light Metros” to further reduce cost of expanding their system. In Toronto, the challenges of our geology make the premium for subway construction over LRT higher, and we cannot expect to build full-scale heavy rapid transit easily.

Archanfel · December 3, 2011

Of course, while we are bickering about subway v.s. LRT, Shanghai already got 7 subway and many LRT lines built in 10 years. Their highest fair is $1.5 and can be as low as $.45. They also built a maglev line to their airport, which costs about $8 to ride. And if their government is not lying (big if), they don't have to subsidize the day to day operation of their public transit.

On a related note, a friend of mine did a term of coop at TTC. His job was to clean 2 streetcars per day. It took him about 30 minutes to do so and he spent the rest of the day playing cards with other employees. hmm.... I wonder whether it's the same in Shanghai.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Archanfel

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

Of course, while we are bickering about subway v.s. LRT, Shanghai already got 7 subway and many LRT lines built in 10 years. Their highest fair is $1.5 and can be as low as $.45. They also built a maglev line to their airport, which costs about $8 to ride. And if their government is not lying (big if), they don't have to subsidize the day to day operation of their public transit.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that China's labour costs might be a tad lower than ours. Of course, it just goes to show you can build anything if there's the political will to do so (which there is not here in Toronto). After all, expanding or improving transit might require people to pay more taxes and you wouldn't want that, would you?

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

This piece is pretty much required reading in the face of the upcoming service cuts/fee hikes.

Rob Ford's TTC problem: too many riders

TTC Commissioner John Parker tried to play down the 2012 changes, writing on Twitter that TTC service standards will only be affected “to the extent that we revert to service levels in effect in 2004-05.” But the TTC had 80 million fewer annual riders in 2004. Trying to cram today’s ridership into 2004 service levels is like trying to cram ten pounds of crap into a five pound bag.
It’s easy to hand wave these service reductions. That whole “times are tough – what’s a little extra crowding on a bus going to hurt anyone?” thing. But in real terms, what we’re seeing in 2012 is the reversal of a longstanding successful policy to build transit ridership through public investment in service. By doing so, we threaten to go back on all the progress made over the past decade, setting off a chain reaction where we’ll continually cut spending as service and ridership decline.

Archanfel · December 7, 2011

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that China's labour costs might be a tad lower than ours. Of course, it just goes to show you can build anything if there's the political will to do so (which there is not here in Toronto). After all, expanding or improving transit might require people to pay more taxes and you wouldn't want that, would you?

Why is the solution for everything more taxes? It requires TTC to be profitable and better usage of existing tax revenues. I am perfectly fine with both measures. TTC's problem is not too many riders, it's too many riders not paying enough to cover the costs. (You can either blame below market fair or high costs, your pick).

Edited December 7, 2011 by Archanfel

CPCFTW · December 7, 2011

After reading this piece from Ford syncophant/horrible person Sue-Ann Levy, I'm left wondering if she's stupid or merely ignorant.

Um? Sue-Ann? You are aware that the cuts were mandated by your boy Robbo, yeah?

It's almost like she's suggesting the ttc had other options such as not paying token collectors $25/hr.

Actually the possibilities are finite given the fiscal austerity right-wing politicos and their media bootlickers demand these days. Of course if levy did her homework, she'd see that comparing Madrid to Toronto is a mug's game.

Buying more garbages seems like a hell of a lot cheaper way to keep the TTC clean than hiring unionized garbage pickers for $20/hr.

It's a pretty simply fix once you get around the unions.

Implement smart pass systems, fire token collectors getting paid $25/hr + benefits, hire security guards to monitor the smart pass system for $14/hr. Fire garbage pickers making $20/hr + benefits, hire garbage bins making $20/10yrs. Fire unionized bus drivers making $25/hr + benefits, hire non-unionized bus drivers to be paid a wage that is appropriate for their "skills"... let's say $15/hr with no benefits. Just saved the city millions.

Edited December 7, 2011 by CPCFTW

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

Why is the solution for everything more taxes? It requires TTC to be profitable and better usage of existing tax revenues.

The TTC's profitability is, at best, a secondary consideration. Its primary job is getting people around quickly and efficiently. Those two ends are not necessarily compatible. There's a good reason why so few major public transit system in the world operates at a profit: it's incredibly expensive to build and operate even the most efficient system.

I am perfectly fine with both measures. TTC's problem is not too many riders, it's too many riders not paying enough to cover the costs. (You can either blame below market fair or high costs, your pick).

Nonsense. As I've pointed out ad nauseum TTC fares make up around 70 per cent of its revenue, among the highest percentages in North America. I really don't see how jacking up fares (thus putting transit out of reach for many who rely on it and thus decreasing ridership and revenue) or cutting costs (which most likely means less service, which would also result in a drop in ridership) would lead to a better system. But I'm sure you'll explain your reasoning, yeah?

CPCFTW · December 7, 2011

I actually don't mind the notion of higher property taxes if it meant the ttc underwent a massive overhaul.

There is nothing more unproductive than having millions of workers stuck in gridlock for an two hours every day. Not to mention the amount of gasoline that has to be consumed every day by all of those workers (wasting money on imported oil/gas rather than on potentially investing/saving).

I would be happy if our subway system was twice or three times as big... maybe with express subway lines running parallel to the current lines. For example, a line that went from finch to eglinton to bloor to dundas to union. It could run that route in 10 minutes, bringing uptown and north york residents downtown and back much more effectively than the current line.

My problem is with the unionized wages of ttc employees. IMO the service cuts are just an excuse to keep the heat on these overpaid, skill-less bums.

The ttc's message: "we're cutting services and hiking fares so we can continue to pay fare collectors who sleep on the job over 100k, and so we can pay rude bus drivers who physically assault passengers 50k."

There's your gravy train. Gut the ttc and its unionized employees, then talk about raising taxes to fix the ttc.

Edited December 7, 2011 by CPCFTW

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

It's almost like she's suggesting the ttc had other options such as not paying token collectors $25/hr.

Buying more garbages seems like a hell of a lot cheaper way to keep the TTC clean than hiring unionized garbage pickers for $20/hr.

It's a pretty simply fix once you get around the unions.

Implement smart pass systems, fire token collectors getting paid $25/hr + benefits, hire security guards to monitor the smart pass system for $14/hr. Fire garbage pickers making $20/hr + benefits, hire garbage bins making $20/10yrs. Fire unionized bus drivers making $25/hr + benefits, hire non-unionized bus drivers to be paid a wage that is appropriate for their "skills"... let's say $15/hr with no benefits. Just saved the city millions.

What's the source for your wage figures here?

Do you honestly think driving a bus is not a skilled job? :rolleyes:

My problem is with the unionized wages of ttc employees. IMO the service cuts are just an excuse to keep the heat on these overpaid, skill-less bums.

The ttc's message: "we're cutting services and hiking fares so we can continue to pay fare collectors who sleep on the job over 100k, and so we can pay rude bus drivers who physically assault passengers 50k."

There's your gravy train. Gut the ttc and its unionized employees, then talk about raising taxes to fix the ttc.

Can you telL me what % of TTC costs are a result of union staff and what % of that is unnecessary?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Black Dog

CPCFTW · December 7, 2011

What's the source for your wage figures here?

Do you honestly think driving a bus is not a skilled job?

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/611565

The TTC, like many transit systems, budgets for overtime – about $21 million on $934 million in salary and benefits this year.

I believe you posted earlier that the TTC has a 1.5bil budget. Well there's 1bil of it there.

Or your own source:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=456

(this guy says he gets a 4 hour break and complains that his workday is 12 hours long, when he is paid for 9 hours and only works 7.5 :lol: )

Do your own research, there was an article in the national post in 2007 about this but I can't seem to locate it. I did find a quote from the article posted in another forum:

"City workers, even the unskilled kind, make a considerable hourly wage. Janitors make at least $19.56/hour, litter pickers $21.11/hour, garbage collectors $24.14/hour, meter readers $26.58/hour, bus and subway drivers $26.58/hour and bylaw enforcement officers $28.67/hour, to cite a few examples."

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/archive/index.php/t-782.html

No it is not a skilled job. Anyone who can drive can learn to drive a bus within 6 months. You have a very loose definition of skilled.

Edited December 7, 2011 by CPCFTW

Archanfel · December 7, 2011

The TTC's profitability is, at best, a secondary consideration. Its primary job is getting people around quickly and efficiently. Those two ends are not necessarily compatible. There's a good reason why so few major public transit system in the world operates at a profit: it's incredibly expensive to build and operate even the most efficient system.

Nonsense. As I've pointed out ad nauseum TTC fares make up around 70 per cent of its revenue, among the highest percentages in North America. I really don't see how jacking up fares (thus putting transit out of reach for many who rely on it and thus decreasing ridership and revenue) or cutting costs (which most likely means less service, which would also result in a drop in ridership) would lead to a better system. But I'm sure you'll explain your reasoning, yeah?

eh, wasn't it you who said TTC ridership and revenue kept on going up? You knew that the fare has been raised numerous time, right? What made you think another raise would put transit out of reach for many and decrease ridership and revenue?

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/611565

Some 588 TTC staff earned $100,000 or more last year, qualifying them for the province's annual salary disclosure list.
That number includes 62 drivers and 21 station collectors, the people who staff subway fare booths.

So you've "saved" the city $8M. Basically a rounding error.

I believe you posted earlier that the TTC has a 1.5bil budget. Well there's 1bil of it there.

That's just a number, though. How much is waste or overpay? You don't know.

Or your own source:
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=456

(this guy says he gets a 4 hour break and complains that his workday is 12 hours long, when he is paid for 9 hours and only works 7.5 )

:rolleyes:

I’m not complaining; I choose my own work and I enjoy what I do (like most TTC operators).

Do your own research, there was an article in the national post in 2007 about this but I can't seem to locate it. I did find a quote from the article posted in another forum:
"City workers, even the unskilled kind, make a considerable hourly wage. Janitors make at least $19.56/hour, litter pickers $21.11/hour, garbage collectors $24.14/hour, meter readers $26.58/hour, bus and subway drivers $26.58/hour and bylaw enforcement officers $28.67/hour, to cite a few examples."

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/archive/index.php/t-782.html

So a bus driver, assuming a regular work day, makes a hair over $50K a year. That's hardly what I would call a massive overpay considering the hours and level of responsibility involved.

The overall point, though, is that like your man Ford, your overstating the extent of the "gravy" here. Certainly these savings should be had where possible, but you're like a doctor concerned about a hangnail when your patient is hemorrhaging blood from his head.

No it is not a skilled job. Anyone who can drive can learn to drive a bus within 6 months. You have a very loose definition of skilled.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's a shitty job. I wouldn't want to do it for $50K a year. Would you?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Black Dog

Black Dog · December 7, 2011

eh, wasn't it you who said TTC ridership and revenue kept on going up? You knew that the fare has been raised numerous time, right? What made you think another raise would put transit out of reach for many and decrease ridership and revenue?

We're not talking about another fare increases, but fare increases sufficient to make the system run at a profit.

CPCFTW · December 8, 2011

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's a shitty job. I wouldn't want to do it for $50K a year. Would you?

Of course I would if I hadn't gone to university to get a better job, but then again I'm not an elitist bureaucrat whose hands have been soaking in ivory their whole life.

As far as the "rounding error", that number is just the ttc employees making over 100k from working overtime. There are thousands of workers collecting inflated paycheques, benefits, and pensions that account for 1bil of the 1.5bil operating budget of the ttc (which I believe accounts for around 50% of toronto's spending). Yes, about 30% of toronto's money goes to paying the salary and wages of bus drivers, garbage pickers, token collectors, and the brilliant managers who have brought us our world class one hour commute times. :lol:

Edited December 8, 2011 by CPCFTW

fellowtraveller · December 8, 2011

In Madrid, underground construction was cheap, subways were relatively easy to build and the money was available for a continuous program of expansion.

Ah yes, the 'available' money in Europe.

Nearly all the infrsstructure money spent in Spain for decades, including subway lines, came via extremely favourable credit terms from EU banks. Not just favourable, they were nearly miraculous terms. Even on those terms, everybody was dismayed and surprised when the money had to be paid back.

We can see now how that is working out for everybody there and globally, with Spain one of several nations on the very brink of financial catstrophe as a result of these policies.

Maybe France or Germany would give Toronto similar terms for the TTC. They too need 'continual program of expansion'.

Boges · December 8, 2011

WAHHHHH!!!!! a 15 cent fare hike. :lol:

Do you people have any idea how much GO-Transit costs to use?

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boges

Black Dog · December 8, 2011

Of course I would if I hadn't gone to university to get a better job, but then again I'm not an elitist bureaucrat whose hands have been soaking in ivory their whole life.

As far as the "rounding error", that number is just the ttc employees making over 100k from working overtime. There are thousands of workers collecting inflated paycheques, benefits, and pensions that account for 1bil of the 1.5bil operating budget of the ttc (which I believe accounts for around 50% of toronto's spending). Yes, about 30% of toronto's money goes to paying the salary and wages of bus drivers, garbage pickers, token collectors, and the brilliant managers who have brought us our world class one hour commute times.

There's so much horseshit in this one paragraph one would need a back hoe to dig out anything of value.