Greece to hold referendum on debt deal

[dre]

with no government funds to pay pensions, public workers including military, police and fire and every other branch of the government the riots they had so far would be minor events compared to what would come...

really it was dumb move on the PM's part did he really think the EU was going to prop up his country financially so it could vote on whether they were going to pay back those funds?...try that with your own family, "hey I want borrow a few million for a month, in the mean time I'll talk it over with my family if we're going to pay it back or not." ya I'm sure that'll work ...

I already explained why the type of analogy you are employing here doesnt work. When you are borrowing money from your family you are assuming they actually had it to loan. The money "lent" to Greece is the product of monetary expansion.

[eyeball]

Are you guys maybe talking past each other a little here?

Wasn't the referendum simply about whether to accept the bail-out/loan being offered by the rest of Europe? It kind of goes without saying that a yes vote would signal the people's intent to live up to it's repayment terms.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... It kind of goes without saying that a yes vote would signal the people's intent to live up to it's repayment terms.

Nope...why would they start living up to "repayment terms" now?

[gouda]

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/greece-gambles-on-referendum-for-new-debt-deal/article2220043/?service=mobile

say bye to the E.U in 2012, hello new world order

I really don't think that Greece will exit the Euro zone. There will be - no, there is - a way this country is getting help from all over the world. The European economy is stronger than we think (quote from thestreet.com)...

[wyly]

Are you guys maybe talking past each other a little here?

Wasn't the referendum simply about whether to accept the bail-out/loan being offered by the rest of Europe? It kind of goes without saying that a yes vote would signal the people's intent to live up to it's repayment terms.

and a no vote means the EU can kiss goodbye any aid given to greece, politcal suicide for EU leaders when they have to face the electorate later...better to cut thier (EU)losses now and let greece go under sooner than later..

[eyeball]

Nope...why would they start living up to "repayment terms" now?

Well, I guess I'd trust the entire electorate's word over just a few politicians but good question. How they live up to it, with what in other words, is just as much a mystery to me too.

[wyly]

I really don't think that Greece will exit the Euro zone. There will be - no, there is - a way this country is getting help from all over the world. The European economy is stronger than we think (quote from thestreet.com)...

gouda? ...cheesehead?

[eyeball]

and a no vote means the EU can kiss goodbye any aid given to greece, politcal suicide for EU leaders when they have to face the electorate later...better to cut thier (EU)losses now and let greece go under sooner than later..

But isn't that what the people of Greece would also be saying if they voted to not accept the aid/bailout in the first place?

[dre]

and a no vote means the EU can kiss goodbye any aid given to greece, politcal suicide for EU leaders when they have to face the electorate later...better to cut thier (EU)losses now and let greece go under sooner than later..

The "aid" being proposed is a 5th tranche of fake bank credit money. Its EXACTLY the kind of "aid" that got them into this boat in the first place. In the long run Greece would be MUCH better off going the route that argentina did.

This deal is just putting a bandaid made of fake bank credit on a gigantic open wound.

[wyly]

The "aid" being proposed is a 5th tranche of fake bank credit money. Its EXACTLY the kind of "aid" that got them into this boat in the first place. In the long run Greece would be MUCH better off going the route that argentina did.

This deal is just putting a bandaid made of fake bank credit on a gigantic open wound.

evidently the people of greece(government)disagree with you...

you can define it as fake if you want but jobs and pay cheques are more important what count at the moment, avoiding global recession even more important...

[dre]

evidently the people of greece(government)disagree with you...

you can define it as fake if you want but jobs and pay cheques are more important what count at the moment, avoiding global recession even more important...

Real jobs and paychecks come from the production and trading of real goods and services. Funding them with anything else is a temporary bandaid that will just make the problem worse over time.

When you cant afford to make the payments on your credit card and the credit card company says "no problem! we'll lend you some money to make the payments to us!" then that should raise a red flag for anyone with even a elementary grasp of economics.

And the "deal" requires Greece to sell off profitable state owned businesses so now its chances of building a sustainable economy based on the production of goods and services is even less.

The Argentinian model would have put Greece on a path to sustainable growth and a real value-backed currency within a few years... but it would have meant some tough times. Spending and revenue would have to be reconciled almost immediately.

THe "Rescue Trache of Bank Debt" idea just delays the inevitable a few years, and forces the Government to sell off real assets to pay back bank credit that wasnt backed by anything besides monetary expansion.

Have a careful look at the other option...

There was short term pain for a couple of years...

Argentina quickly lost the confidence of investors and the flight of money away from the country increased. In 2001, people fearing the worst began withdrawing large sums of money from their bank accounts, turning pesos into dollars and sending them abroad, causing a run on the banks. The government then enacted a set of measures, informally known as the corralito,[7][8] that effectively froze all bank accounts for twelve months,[9][10] allowing for only minor sums of cash to be withdrawn, initially announced to be of just $ 250 a week.[11]

Because of this allowance limit and the serious problems it caused in certain cases, many Argentines became enraged and took to the streets of important cities, especially Buenos Aires. They engaged in a form of popular protest that became known as cacerolazo[8][12][13][14] (banging pots and pans). These protests occurred especially in 2001 and 2002. At first the cacerolazos were simply noisy demonstrations, but soon they included property destruction,[15] often directed at banks,[16][17] foreign privatized companies, and especially big American and European companies. Many businesses installed metal barriers because windows and glass facades were being broken, and even fires being ignited at their doors. Billboards of such companies as Coca Cola and others were brought down by the masses of demonstrators.

Amid rioting, President Fernando de la Rua resigns, December 21, 2001.

Confrontations between the police and citizens became a common sight, and fires were also set on Buenos Aires avenues. Fernando de la Rúa declared a state of emergency but this only worsened the situation, precipitating the violent protests of 20 and 21 December 2001 in Plaza de Mayo,[18] where demonstrators clashed with the police, ended with several dead, and precipitated the fall of the government. De la Rúa eventually fled the Casa Rosada in a helicopter on 21 December.[19]

But once they had extricated themselves from the international bank credit scam... They started to recover.

The economic outlook was completely different from that of the 1990s; the devalued peso made Argentine exports cheap and competitive abroad, while discouraging imports. In addition, the high price of soy in the international market produced an injection of massive amounts of foreign currency (with China becoming a major buyer of Argentina's soy products).

The government encouraged import substitution and accessible credit for businesses, staged an aggressive plan to improve tax collection, and set aside large amounts of money for social welfare, while controlling expenditure in other fields.[citation needed]

As a result of the administration's productive model and controlling measures (selling reserve dollars in the public market), the peso slowly revalued, reaching a 3-to-1 rate to the dollar. Agricultural exports grew and tourism returned.

The huge trade surplus ultimately caused such an inflow of dollars that the government was forced to begin intervening to keep the peso from revaluing further, which would ruin the tax collection scheme (largely based on import taxes and royalties) and discourage further reindustrialisation. The central bank started buying dollars in the local market and stocking them as reserves. By December 2005, foreign currency reserves had reached $28 billion (they were greatly reduced by the anticipated payment of the full debt to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in January 2006). The downside of this reserve accumulation strategy is that the dollars have to be bought with freshly issued pesos, which may induce inflation. The central bank neutralises a part of this monetary emission by selling Treasury letters[clarification needed]. In this way the exchange rate has been stabilised near a reference value of 3 pesos to the dollar.

Argentinas economy is stronger now than it has been for decades.

This is just a natural cycle. Once the Argentinian peso has collapsed the economy naturally started to recover because low currency values encouraged domestic production, and that production re-valued the currency over time and backed it with REAL GOODS AND SERVICES.

avoiding global recession even more important

If you want to avoid more global recessions then you need a new monetary system. Read my post a few pages ago about how the current system works, and my links that illustrate the debt spiral every productive country has been in since 1971 when currency became fake bank credit.

evidently the people of greece(government)disagree with you...

Yeah well... when someone waves thirty billion dollars in your face and tells you theyve found a way for you to keep financing a life beyond your means with borrowed money then people tend to take the 30 billion I guess.

Although... we dont know if the PEOPLE disagree with me or not, because the government has just decided they have no say in the matter. Well see how that plays out at election time... If this government even lasts that long.

Edited November 4, 2011 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

Argentina owes it's recovery and good fortune to two specific things....soybeans on the pampas and a rich China willing to buy every bushel.

[dre]

Argentina owes it's recovery and good fortune to two specific things....soybeans on the pampas and a rich China willing to buy every bushel.

Youre missing one of the biggest things. Its was the devaluation of its currency that encouraged production, discouraged imports, and encouraged exports, and the fact that the default forced them to reconcile spending and revenue instead of just maxing out more credit cards.

The same thing will happen in the US eventually. As your currency continues to collapse and the currencies of some the countries you have large trade defecits with starts grows, a lot of domestic production will return to the US which will strenthen the economy and put people to work.

[dre]

you can define it as fake if you want

Never mind how I define it. Lets see how the people in charge of this system define it!

From the Federal Reserves Own Admissions

"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in out account to cover the check,

but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." — Putting it simply, Boston Federal Reserve Bank

"Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just

a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." — Modern Money Mechanics Workbook,

Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975

"The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over

2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidentally, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the

Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945." —Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system

"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar

we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." — Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank

And heres a quote from the guy that signed this system into law in the US after he realized what he had unwittingly done to people.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." — President Woodrow Wilson

"Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing" — Ralph M.

Hawtrey, Secretary of the British Treasury

Edited November 4, 2011 by dre

[olp1fan]

Friday is the day the Greek government will fail a non confidence vote

he should pro rogue parliament and hold the referendum in 2 weeks

[blueblood]

Argentina owes it's recovery and good fortune to two specific things....soybeans on the pampas and a rich China willing to buy every bushel.

And cheap labor.

[olp1fan]

And cheap labor.

are you not canadian? you forgot the U

[bush_cheney2004]

Youre missing one of the biggest things. Its was the devaluation of its currency....

Nope...it was more like the influx of investment and the change from the gaucho economy. Regardless of the currency valuation, something real had to happen. Hell, China purposely devalues it's currency but it actually has to produce something too.

The same thing will happen in the US eventually....

Sure it will, just like the price of oil will reverse the flow of goods. Sometimes I think you just make it up as you go along.

[dre]

Nope...it was more like the influx of investment and the change from the gaucho economy. Regardless of the currency valuation, something real had to happen. Hell, China purposely devalues it's currency but it actually has to produce something too.

Sure it will, just like the price of oil will reverse the flow of goods. Sometimes I think you just make it up as you go along.

No but you definately do. I never said the price of energy will reverse the flow of goods. I said would encourage demestic production. As will the devaluation of currency. These arent even mildly contraversial claims and you wont find a single economist on earth that will tell you something different.

Congratulations for being the only person on earth that doesnt understand why dropping currency values encourage domestic producton

Nope...it was more like the influx of investment

No sorry. After the default foreign investors completely walked away from the place, and they didnt come back until the government had managed to revalue the peso back to 3:1.

Edited November 4, 2011 by dre

[blueblood]

No but you definately do. I never said the price of energy will reverse the flow of goods. I said would encourage demestic production. As will the devaluation of currency. These arent even mildly contraversial claims and you wont find a single economist on earth that will tell you something different.

Congratulations for being the only person on earth that doesnt understand why dropping currency values encourage domestic producton

No sorry. After the default foreign investors completely walked away from the place, and they didnt come back until the government had managed to revalue the peso back to 3:1.

Oh joy lets do like the germans did after ww1. Wheelbarrow full of money to the bakery anyone?

[wyly]

When you cant afford to make the payments on your credit card and the credit card company says "no problem! we'll lend you some money to make the payments to us!" then that should raise a red flag for anyone with even a elementary grasp of economics.

any bank will tell you that's not permitted, so if you do it it's your own fault...

And the "deal" requires Greece to sell off profitable state owned businesses so now its chances of building a sustainable economy based on the production of goods and services is even less.

profitable, from what i've heard they're anything but profitable...

The Argentinian model would have put Greece on a path to sustainable growth and a real value-backed currency within a few years... but it would have meant some tough times. Spending and revenue would have to be reconciled almost immediately.

two different situations...

THe "Rescue Trache of Bank Debt" idea just delays the inevitable a few years, and forces the Government to sell off real assets to pay back bank credit that wasnt backed by anything besides monetary expansion.

you could be right but default will be felt right around the world, not defaulting and maybe the problems can be avoided...if your right and it can't be avoided then there is no harm in delaying the inevitable...

Although... we dont know if the PEOPLE disagree with me or not, because the government has just decided they have no say in the matter. Well see how that plays out at election time... If this government even lasts that long.

greek law apparently has no provisions for referendums on money matters, it would've required a change of laws, does our government hold referendums when they pass controversial legislation...2/3s of canadians support the long gun registry where's my referendum!...

[bush_cheney2004]

No but you definately do. I never said the price of energy will reverse the flow of goods. I said would encourage demestic production. As will the devaluation of currency.

Hey...you're the expert, right? I am not an economist, but neither are you. The US purposely pursues a weak dollar policy to monetize its debt.

These arent even mildly contraversial claims and you wont find a single economist on earth that will tell you something different.

Yes I will...you are confusing cause and effect. Remember a thing called the Canadian peso back in the '90s....how did that "devaluation" work out for ya, huh?

Congratulations for being the only person on earth that doesnt understand why dropping currency values encourage domestic producton

Thank you....I always knew I was special.

No sorry. After the default foreign investors completely walked away from the place, and they didnt come back until the government had managed to revalue the peso back to 3:1.

Oh they came back long before that, and its growing with two harvests per year.

Edited November 4, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[blueblood]

Oh they came back long before that, and its growing with two harvests per year.

Too bad they can't fully capitalize on that with their ridiculous export taxes and farmer strikes in response to that. Oh well their pain is my gain.

[dre]

Oh joy lets do like the germans did after ww1. Wheelbarrow full of money to the bakery anyone?

Germany ran into that problem because it did exactly what Greece is trying to do with this "Rescue tranche of bank credit". It tried to stave off collapse with monetary expansion like Greece is doing instead of extricating itself from the cycle like Argentina did.

Greece will still end up there... they are just pushing it down the road a bit so that it happens on somebody elses watch. They are getting a new credit card to make payments on their other maxed out cards.

Try running your household finances that way and see what happens

[dre]

Hey...you're the expert, right? I am not an economist, but neither are you. The US purposely pursues a weak dollar policy to monetize its debt.

Yes I will...you are confusing cause and effect. Remember a thing called the Canadian peso back in the '90s....how did that "devaluation" work out for ya, huh?

Thank you....I always knew I was special.

Oh they came back long before that, and its growing with two harvests per year.

Yes I will...you are confusing cause and effect. Remember a thing called the Canadian peso back in the '90s....how did that "devaluation" work out for ya, huh?

Nod bad. It encouraged foreign investment, encouraged tourism, and encouraged domestic production, and exports, and it forced us to stop trying to prop up the economy with bank credit.