Shipbuilding contracts

[shortlived]

Not attacking the idea, here. You are labeling me as someone who doesn't know about design of nautical and naval systems. They have not made good ships, for instance the US national security cutters were made to last only 3 years in their operating environment, that is what your... highly skilled people did. There is nothing in what I said indicates any of my plan is inoperable, you are spouting nonsense. I think torpedos rockets and machine guns are more than enough deterrent to stop illegal fishing. You are being nonsensical. Anything more serious can be met with helicopters and jets.

Maybe that is the problem, your great at following future tech, but you've failed to understand what it is our navy does for a living, and why over 160 nations are not multi tasking thier militaries with other more productive services. let alone just arm their ships with some torps, MG,s. or doing just illegal fishing patrols But hey maybe you know something they don't i mean maybe your ahead of your time. Or maybe you just don't know what your talking about.

Your military is only meant to drain money, that is why it fails and can't be supported without extorting from tax payers. You military design is stupid. Dedicated forces are ineffective in defence, they are only used for occupation and destroying foreign nations of lesser technological capacity. It serves no benefit for Canada to have its forces designed in that fashion.

Again why is it 160 nations or more are following the same dotrine, could it be they are on to something....

As for occuping and destroying other nations have you read any of our history....Thats what militaries do, they provide our nation with means to deal with problems once the polictical process breaks down.....it's really that simple....

I didn't refute that, I just said it is a bad model and doesn't serve the tax payers interests.

[shortlived]

I am not going to waste my time disproving your entire "argument" again but Ill give you a few things to think about:

1) We might run afoul with international law if we arm merchant ships.

Even if it is called the Navy? Iran delivers goods with their navy.

What international law are you referring to? Do share.

2)A surprise attack against our Merchant ships while unarmed might see our entire navy at the bottom of the ocean in a matter of minutes while the weapons are on shore.

I never said they are unarmed. You said they are unarmed. Try again. Also a suprise attack against Canada's navy likely would see it at the bottom of the sea. Hence the "surprise" part.

3)War ships need to be ready at a moments notice not in a month or 5 or or even a year if they are needed now they are needed now.

Dude, what indicates these arn't war ships, because they can carry cargos. You are out of touch with the role of most ships of the line in various countries militaries having multi functions for humanitarian relief and evacuation amongst lobbing shells at people in unfriendly nations. You seem to be recreating the whole thing and not realizing what role the navy actually plays in real life.

4)Experience is important, having a well armed ship with an inexperienced crew is a recipe for disaster,having people qualify on their job once a year and then don't see the equipment until next time negates the entire basis of the military. In your world I would be equal to a MWO simply because he will have just about as much experience as me whereas in todays military be it the Army, Airforce or navy a senior NCM with 20-30 years experience is invaluable.

How does this relate to what I've stated. It doesn't. You are inventing a scenario that has nothing to do with what I have said. My plan grows technical experience, your plan transfers Canadian assets to foreign countries, see the difference.

5) Professional military forces have shown their dominance since well before the time of the Roman Empire, trying to argue against several thousand years of history to prove your "point" is pointless because you can't win...

HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO MY PLAN?

If war breaks out I want the RCN ready to fight and defend Canada rather than be caught unarmed and defenceless all over the world and either sunk or interned in neutral ports which means we can see our fleet decimated in a matter of minutes.

HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO MY PLAN?

As for this little gem let me dissect it. We have people who chose a profession and are the best in that field be it firefighter, police officer, infantry, signaller, engineer, paramedic etc I don't want to go for an heart surgery and have an Orthodontist do the surgery as his/her secondary job. I want the firefighter who knows what he is doing to come and get me out of a fire rather than a jack of all trades and a master of none, I want a police officer who knows what he is doing rather than someone who will screw up the investigation due to lack of experience, knowledge, training or any combination thereof.

Too bad so sad, suck it up.

We can have a first world police department, fire department, military and healthcare system or we can have a third world police department that cannot solve a crime, a fire department that sees 10 houses burn because they didn't know how to stop the fire at the first house, a military that dies by the hundreds in the smaller firefight or the doctor that kills more through inexperience than saves...

Stupid people need not apply to public safety.

I don't know why I waste my time talking to you as you appear to be some immature little kid hiding in mommies basement but hopefully someday you can come out and see the real world and realize that none of your ideas work anywhere other than your head.

I am done wasting my time with you.

I'm getting stressed reading your nonsense so we may both be served by this fact.

Edited March 12, 2013 by shortlived

[Guest Derek L]

I am not going to waste my time disproving your entire "argument" again but Ill give you a few things to think about:

1) We might run afoul with international law if we arm merchant ships.

Well also never being able to obtain insurance for said vessel……….And only and idiot would ship their goods on a uninsured merchantmen………….

It also plays into accessibility of a great many foreign ports: For instance, our current AORs are able to enter a great many more ports due to being commissioned naval vessels, crewed by naval personal, when contrasted with the exact same type of ship operated by the United States military sealift command or the Royal fleet Auxiliary…Both organizations that use civilian sailors…..Said ships can be armed, but don’/t carry commercial cargo.

And one could go even further with the British experience during the Falklands……….The Admiralty requisitioned many civilian vessels for the Armada, but due to the legalities of arming civilian merchantmen, left them unarmed………..The result, the Atlantic Conveyor.

2)A surprise attack against our Merchant ships while unarmed might see our entire navy at the bottom of the ocean in a matter of minutes while the weapons are on shore.

That, and like you mentioned above, qualifications and training for the crews…………Working up a proper military vessel, crewed by fulltime sailors for a deployment takes months………I can’t imagine how long it would take for part-time sailors on part time ships.

3)War ships need to be ready at a moments notice not in a month or 5 or or even a year if they are needed now they are needed now.

And the only way that is possible, is to have a modern navy operating on a cyclic pattern of operation ………..If you deem a potential, sustained conflict might require “your navy” to respond to with 4 vessels, you best have as a minimum 12-16 vessels to ensure your ability to respond 24/7/365.……

4)Experience is important, having a well armed ship with an inexperienced crew is a recipe for disaster, having people qualify on their job once a year and then don't see the equipment until next time negates the entire basis of the military. In your world I would be equal to a MWO simply because he will have just about as much experience as me whereas in todays military be it the Army, Airforce or navy a senior NCM with 20-30 years experience is invaluable.

Couldn’t agree more……….The ability to conduct modern warfare is a perishable skill set……….Even experienced old farts that know everything but have been out of the game for a given period of time would require acclimatization & familiarization with their former trade….

5) Professional military forces have shown their dominance since well before the time of the Roman Empire, trying to argue against several thousand years of history to prove your "point" is pointless because you can't win...

Exactly, without even a cadre of professional soldiers, sailors and airmen, rapid wartime expansion demands a heavy price…………

[Signals.Cpl]

Dude, what indicates these arn't war ships, because they can carry cargos. You are out of touch with the role of most ships of the line in various countries militaries having multi functions for humanitarian relief and evacuation amongst lobbing shells at people in unfriendly nations. You seem to be recreating the whole thing and not realizing what role the navy actually plays in real life.

What do you know about real life military? Scratch that, what do you know about real life at all? You support genocide! What else do we need to know about you? You don't value human life, you are on the same league as Hitler, Himmler, Mao Ze-Dong, Tojo, Stalin, Kambanda and the hundreds of other lowlife genocidal animals of the last 60-70 years and in the same league as the thousands of others who have supported or participated in genocide throughout history... nothing more needs to be said except that your opinion holds no value when you don't value human lives and attempt to make an extremely idiotic and simpleminded justification for the mass murder of innocent people, you were born about 70 years to late in the wrong country on the wrong continent and would have fit in with the SS quite well...

[Smallc]

Please stop....I like this topic.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Smallc

[Signals.Cpl]

Please stop....I like this topic.

I'm done with him. Sorry to detract from the conversation.

[Signals.Cpl]

That, and like you mentioned above, qualifications and training for the crews…………Working up a proper military vessel, crewed by fulltime sailors for a deployment takes months………I can’t imagine how long it would take for part-time sailors on part time ships.

What about reservists mixing in with the reg force navy? It works for the patrol ships so why can't we expand the reserves to meet financial constraints and maintain larger numbers with the larger combat vessels? Essentially have naval reservists at the same type of deployment structure as the Army where they are integrated within a unit rather than deployed as a unit.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Signals.Cpl

[Guest Derek L]

What about reservists mixing in with the reg force navy? It works for the patrol ships so why can't we expand the reserves to meet financial constraints and maintain larger numbers with the larger combat vessels? Essentially have naval reservists at the same type of deployment structure as the Army where they are integrated within a unit rather than deployed as a unit.

Well it doesn’t really work for the Kingston’s……..The Naval Reserves have ~1000-1500 personal that actually deploy with the fleet, and with that, a great many are essentially Reg Force, in that they are working near fulltime……..Even with their dedication and hard work, we still can’t man the entire class without borrowing heavily from the Reg Force…………And with the AOPS, I would expect the situation to get worse when you include more technical positions that truly require full time personal……….

As to integration of reserves into reg force units, that too sounds all well and good, but a great many of the reserves are either old fart MARS officers and CPOs (That the reg force isn’t that short of) or 17 year olds, that like reg force 17 years olds, will have (depending on trade) months, if not years of initial and continued training to make them viable members of the ships company………Why would a resource limited Navy invest in young part timers when they could attempt to invest in reg force?

[Signals.Cpl]

Well it doesn’t really work for the Kingston’s……..The Naval Reserves have ~1000-1500 personal that actually deploy with the fleet, and with that, a great many are essentially Reg Force, in that they are working near fulltime……..Even with their dedication and hard work, we still can’t man the entire class without borrowing heavily from the Reg Force…………And with the AOPS, I would expect the situation to get worse when you include more technical positions that truly require full time personal……….

As to integration of reserves into reg force units, that too sounds all well and good, but a great many of the reserves are either old fart MARS officers and CPOs (That the reg force isn’t that short of) or 17 year olds, that like reg force 17 years olds, will have (depending on trade) months, if not years of initial and continued training to make them viable members of the ships company………Why would a resource limited Navy invest in young part timers when they could attempt to invest in reg force?

When all are trained a reg force member costs about the same as 3 reservists which would provide 3 trained members to alleviate stress of multiple deployments. We already have members that are double dipping by getting a pension and reserve pay at the same time so why not take advantage of their experience and maintain a ready reserve to assist the Reg force? Also a restructure of the Reserves as a whole could solve the short comings by eliminating members who don't parade consistently from the total strength, by this I mean eliminating the people that show up once every 30 days just to stay off of NES list. I personally think that the answer is to utilize the cheapest source possible and reservists are that source and those reserve units should be on the coasts or as close as possible to a major naval base rather than having them in cities with no financially viable access to either coast with a major base.

[Guest Derek L]

When all are trained a reg force member costs about the same as 3 reservists which would provide 3 trained members to alleviate stress of multiple deployments. We already have members that are double dipping by getting a pension and reserve pay at the same time so why not take advantage of their experience and maintain a ready reserve to assist the Reg force? Also a restructure of the Reserves as a whole could solve the short comings by eliminating members who don't parade consistently from the total strength, by this I mean eliminating the people that show up once every 30 days just to stay off of NES list. I personally think that the answer is to utilize the cheapest source possible and reservists are that source and those reserve units should be on the coasts or as close as possible to a major naval base rather than having them in cities with no financially viable access to either coast with a major base.

I disagree, purple trades aside, I think the only viable approach for the more technical seagoing trades (Perhaps Boatswain aside) for the Naval Reserve is to recruit recently released reg force members………Same goes with the air force……….What type of investment would it be for DND to pay the cost of training an aircraft technician from scratch that they can’t force to deploy? I’m sure Air Canada would love it………..

And even more so with officers in both the navy and air force………

As to limiting Naval Reserve units to the coasts, well on paper it sounds sensible, but you are limiting potential recruits……..

Frankly, if you are going to invest any further time or money into the reserves, which in this climate the money should be going to the reg force, said terms of employment should be similar to the rules and guidelines governing class B & C employment………..Obviously further job protection legislation might need to be passed, but if they military needs you, you go*……..Or don’t sign up for the free education and drinks after parade night.

*Overseas

Edited March 13, 2013 by Derek L

[Signals.Cpl]

I disagree, purple trades aside, I think the only viable approach for the more technical seagoing trades (Perhaps Boatswain aside) for the Naval Reserve is to recruit recently released reg force members………Same goes with the air force……….What type of investment would it be for DND to pay the cost of training an aircraft technician from scratch that they can’t force to deploy? I’m sure Air Canada would love it………..

Thats why we need to restructure the reserves but I was leaning more on putting naval reserve units near the coasts so that we can recruit people who already are in the business to one degree or another. If we can tap in to the available pool of qualified personnel we will need shorter conversion courses. I know this sounds naive but I think with proper restructuring of the reserves and legislation that protects reservists jobs and encourages employers to higher reservists through incentives could solve some problems.

And even more so with officers in both the navy and air force………

As to limiting Naval Reserve units to the coasts, well on paper it sounds sensible, but you are limiting potential recruits……..

Frankly, if you are going to invest any further time or money into the reserves, which in this climate the money should be going to the reg force, said terms of employment should be similar to the rules and guidelines governing class B & C employment………..Obviously further job protection legislation might need to be passed, but if they military needs you, you go*……..Or don’t sign up for the free education and drinks after parade night.

*Overseas

I am with you on this one to a degree, we need Primary reserve which is contract based , a secondary reserve which is force generation as well as manning training establishments and it should be along the lines of the current primary reserve. Singing on the dotted line with the primary reserve be it navy army or airforce would mean that you get better pay than the secondary reserve, better set of benefits but also higher level of training and better equipment as well as that you could deploy as individual augmentation for a deployment or as a unit be it at the platoon, coy or battalion level.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Signals.Cpl

[Guest Derek L]

Thats why we need to restructure the reserves but I was leaning more on putting naval reserve units near the coasts so that we can recruit people who already are in the business to one degree or another. If we can tap in to the available pool of qualified personnel we will need shorter conversion courses. I know this sounds naive but I think with proper restructuring of the reserves and legislation that protects reservists jobs and encourages employers to higher reservists through incentives could solve some problems.

Would never work for two reasons………..First not all required skill sets for the Navy offer a even closely related civilian career……….On the opposite coin, many of the maritime based unions (here) won’t recognize prior military service……..I have a friend that spent over 20 years in the Royal Navy, was a navigator on HMS Intrepid, then the XO of a type 42 Destroyer……..He packed up his family and immigrated to Canada, and applied to BC Ferries……….He couldn’t even get a job as deckhand assisting in the loading and unloading of cars…..He’s now a Captain of a Holland America cruise liner…….

I am with you on this one to a degree, we need Primary reserve which is contract based , a secondary reserve which is force generation as well as manning training establishments and it should be along the lines of the current primary reserve. Singing on the dotted line with the primary reserve be it navy army or airforce would mean that you get better pay than the secondary reserve, better set of benefits but also higher level of training and better equipment.

All that will do is make another empire with all the espoused eunuchs..........

If someone is signing the dotted line, including all the retired old farts in the PRes and supplementary reserve, they should be obligated, if the Forces so require, to deploy…………If they can’t commit, and this wouldn’t necessarily mean they would be deployed, for whatever reason, be it conflicting University classes or their knees hurt, then they should go join a floor hockey league or the local Legion.

And well I’m playing Patton, initial length of service contracts should be increased several years, with a requirement of both reg force and reserves, when releasing (barring a health condition) to be placed on the Supplementary Reserve for 5 years……….

Though this would detract some potential members, it would also help garner a better return on investment for DND………….

Don’t even get me started on fitness standards though………….

[Army Guy]

 

I didn't refute that, I just said it is a bad model and doesn't serve the tax payers interests.

 

If there is one thing man is good at it is killing each other on a mass scale, this model that you don't like has been developed over thousands of years and thousands of conflicts it is the best one out there, and i have no doubt will be here for thousands of more years.

As for serving the tax payers interests, Nations are not forced to invest anything in their militaries, but that comes at a price or trade off does it not....

That trade off is your security,and freedoms that you enjoy everyday...that price you pay is your taxes...the more you taxes you spend on your military the more security and freedoms you will have available.

Perhaps you should work on how our government invests those tax payers dollars , look at changing it's bussiness model on how it spends funding. and not how we conduct our missions and taskings.

[Army Guy]

I am with you on this one to a degree, we need Primary reserve which is contract based , a secondary reserve which is force generation as well as manning training establishments and it should be along the lines of the current primary reserve. Singing on the dotted line with the primary reserve be it navy army or airforce would mean that you get better pay than the secondary reserve, better set of benefits but also higher level of training and better equipment as well as that you could deploy as individual augmentation for a deployment or as a unit be it at the platoon, coy or battalion level.

I disagree, want to sign a contract join the reg force, which is all contract based, and correct me if i'm wrong Reserves that do agree to deploy also sign contracts for a certain period of time. Once they agree they are a go unless they fail pre deployment training, or medical....what i mean they can't just quit and go home when the going gets tough, or their crack hurts.

I think having reservists on contract, would hurt recruitment,besides if the balloon went up there would not be a problem with recruitment, Canadians have for the most part answered the call when they needed to...

If you were going to put them on contract, the government should be forced to equip them to for the most part same standard, so training and experience would be the same ....and we all know that is not going to happen, Shit we are still strugling to outfit the regs, what equipment the reserves do get the reg force rapes.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Army Guy

[Signals.Cpl]

I disagree, want to sign a contract join the reg force, which is all contract based, and correct me if i'm wrong Reserves that do agree to deploy also sign contracts for a certain period of time. Once they agree they are a go unless they fail pre deployment training, or medical....what i mean they can't just quit and go home when the going gets tough, or their crack hurts.

I spend 3 years in the reserves before I switched reg force and in the 3 years there were many people I only saw once a month so that they can stay the right side of NES, others showed up to one or two exercises a year, the exercises that were indoors and easier. We need reserves where saying that there are 100 soldiers in the unit means that 100 soldiers parade and exercise on a regular basis rather than having 100 soldiers on paper and having the regular crew of 15-20 on every exercise and another 15-20 going on only one or two exercises a year.

There are some Communication Regiments/Squadrons that are wearing out their active troops because the majority don't show up, when an infantry regiment asks for a 3 men CP detachment and a signals regiment sends a 1 man detachment because 8 other C/S require a CP as well as a Brigade CP and you have only 10-12 to man the positions, we see the good soldiers who show up every parade night and go on every exercise leave because they do all the work and see that all of the higher positions are tied down by people that rarely if ever show up instead of kicking them out and having MCpl's, Sgts, and WO's that show up every exercise or as close to it as possible.

We need a reserve force that we can depend on and one where we can have permanent units that work well with each other year after year rather than having ad hoc units each exercise. We need to know that we have 20,000 army reserve means that it is a 20,000 army reserve rather than having 20,000 "trained" and 8,000-12,000 regularly on exercise if we are lucky. We need a reserve force that can augment the reg force but also one that can deploy its own units when/if it comes to that.

I think having reservists on contract, would hurt recruitment,besides if the balloon went up there would not be a problem with recruitment, Canadians have for the most part answered the call when they needed to...

Hurting recruitment doesn't matter if those who are turned away are not the serious once... The idea I was proposing would be to split the reserves where its job would be to train and maintain x number of infantry battalions, armoured recce, engineers, service battalions etc... manned by reservists who have taken some steps to assure their reliability when it comes to attendance through a contract but as a result are more likely to be deployed as a unit. Right now we have 9 infantry battalions and x number of reserve infantry "regiments" some of which are platoon strength, so why not restructure the reserves to know exactly how many battalions we can deploy at any one time? Instead of forming units for specific missions and then manning them from throughout the CF reserves we can deploy a formed unit with only individuals brought in from other units to make up any shortcomings due to injuries etc...

My point is not to worry about the next big war and say to ourselves that we dealt with the last one well enough so we can deal with the next one, but to be able to field x number of battalions and support units within a short amount of time rather than spending weeks or months on end building up battalions from dozens of reserve units and sub units just to have a battalion deploy with zero unit cohesion because they have never worked together.

If you were going to put them on contract, the government should be forced to equip them to for the most part same standard, so training and experience would be the same

Exactly, three levels, Reg force, Primary reserve and secondary/supplemental(which is basically the same as todays Primary reserve). The new primary reserve will be on contract and will be equipped and trained to a standard equal to the reg force and have access to similar courses so that soldiers could easily transition from one to the other in times of need. Experience is much harder but at the same time with the contract based reserves we can guarantee that the little time they have to gain experience they will take advantage of it rather than not show up at all or only show up once in a while...

....and we all know that is not going to happen, Shit we are still strugling to outfit the regs, what equipment the reserves do get the reg force rapes.

The idea is not to outfit all the reserves to the same standard as it is not likely to happen but having say 5,000 reservists on contract supported by 20,000 reserves who act as force generation, support, training and are manning the schools. The idea is to have a cohesive unit that can be on par with the reg force when it comes to deployment, just think about how bad it would be if before deploying 2 RCR DND decided to take out all the troops and man the battalions with 500 randomly selected soldiers led by an officer who does not know or barely knows his subordinates and soldiers who don't know each other or their superiors? It would work and they would get the job done but it should be done only in an emergency not when we have time to restructure so we don't keep doing the same thing to the reserves.

[shortlived]

Don't you know.........We should just have the police act as taxis, firefighters drive buses and paramedics deliver mail.

the taxi suggestion is genius. It would have to be a preferential rate though due to fare dumping during a call.

There isn't enough free room for mail delivery but canada post could act as back up paramedics in emergencies. they arn't decked out well enough speed wise and equipment which is expensive. The firefighters could drive buses if they are trainined in pumper etc.. driving in an evaculation scenario if there wern't available bus drivers for all available buses as could truck drivers.

but the police taxi thing would work for patrol drivers or a segment of patrol drivers. Some people might prefer police cabis while others might opt for commercial. I wouldn't expect it to bring in as much as a cabi would get, but it would soften the costs a tini bit, and give the cops a chance to get to know people in their communities outside of a victim/criminal context.

Edited March 13, 2013 by shortlived

[Guest Derek L]

I spend 3 years in the reserves before I switched reg force and in the 3 years there were many people I only saw once a month so that they can stay the right side of NES, others showed up to one or two exercises a year, the exercises that were indoors and easier. We need reserves where saying that there are 100 soldiers in the unit means that 100 soldiers parade and exercise on a regular basis rather than having 100 soldiers on paper and having the regular crew of 15-20 on every exercise and another 15-20 going on only one or two exercises a year.

There are some Communication Regiments/Squadrons that are wearing out their active troops because the majority don't show up, when an infantry regiment asks for a 3 men CP detachment and a signals regiment sends a 1 man detachment because 8 other C/S require a CP as well as a Brigade CP and you have only 10-12 to man the positions, we see the good soldiers who show up every parade night and go on every exercise leave because they do all the work and see that all of the higher positions are tied down by people that rarely if ever show up instead of kicking them out and having MCpl's, Sgts, and WO's that show up every exercise or as close to it as possible.

We need a reserve force that we can depend on and one where we can have permanent units that work well with each other year after year rather than having ad hoc units each exercise. We need to know that we have 20,000 army reserve means that it is a 20,000 army reserve rather than having 20,000 "trained" and 8,000-12,000 regularly on exercise if we are lucky. We need a reserve force that can augment the reg force but also one that can deploy its own units when/if it comes to that.

*Disclaimer, just wanted to say that I’m aware that there are a great many Reserves of all the elements, commissioned and non, that contribute or have contributed greatly to the armed forces, and I don’t wish to come across as dumping on them.

Exactly, in my view, we’d be better off with 10k dedicated, deployable reserves, then 20k of a mixed bag……..If like you mention a unit of 100 only has 25 deployable personal, we’d be much better of focusing the resources spent on the 75 to the 25 in increased degrees of training, equipment and pay/benefits to equal out any financial losses they might occur form “neglecting” their “civilian careers”…………..I’d even be in favour of further programs aimed at subsidizing or forgiveness of student loans in exchange of lengthier service contracts……….

I think with a focused approach, we could also find savings in closing & amalgamating many of the reserve units, well using said savings to fund other requirements.

Hurting recruitment doesn't matter if those who are turned away are not the serious once... The idea I was proposing would be to split the reserves where its job would be to train and maintain x number of infantry battalions, armoured recce, engineers, service battalions etc... manned by reservists who have taken some steps to assure their reliability when it comes to attendance through a contract but as a result are more likely to be deployed as a unit. Right now we have 9 infantry battalions and x number of reserve infantry "regiments" some of which are platoon strength, so why not restructure the reserves to know exactly how many battalions we can deploy at any one time? Instead of forming units for specific missions and then manning them from throughout the CF reserves we can deploy a formed unit with only individuals brought in from other units to make up any shortcomings due to injuries etc...

My point is not to worry about the next big war and say to ourselves that we dealt with the last one well enough so we can deal with the next one, but to be able to field x number of battalions and support units within a short amount of time rather than spending weeks or months on end building up battalions from dozens of reserve units and sub units just to have a battalion deploy with zero unit cohesion because they have never worked together.

Nail.Head.Hammer…………To paraphrase JFK, don’t ask what the reserves/forces can do for you, but what you can do for the reserves/forces………….

Without picking on anyone unit and looking at the lower mainland and Vancouver Island for example, wouldn’t we be better served by having one or two units made up of mixed MOCs for solely administration purposes, with employment and training conducted with reg force parent units?

………Do we need numerous “pretend” infantry regiments spread out over the Lower Mainland?

Exactly, three levels, Reg force, Primary reserve and secondary/supplemental(which is basically the same as todays Primary reserve). The new primary reserve will be on contract and will be equipped and trained to a standard equal to the reg force and have access to similar courses so that soldiers could easily transition from one to the other in times of need. Experience is much harder but at the same time with the contract based reserves we can guarantee that the little time they have to gain experience they will take advantage of it rather than not show up at all or only show up once in a while...

But to what purpose does the new supplemental reserve serve?

The idea is not to outfit all the reserves to the same standard as it is not likely to happen but having say 5,000 reservists on contract supported by 20,000 reserves who act as force generation, support, training and are manning the schools. The idea is to have a cohesive unit that can be on par with the reg force when it comes to deployment, just think about how bad it would be if before deploying 2 RCR DND decided to take out all the troops and man the battalions with 500 randomly selected soldiers led by an officer who does not know or barely knows his subordinates and soldiers who don't know each other or their superiors? It would work and they would get the job done but it should be done only in an emergency not when we have time to restructure so we don't keep doing the same thing to the reserves.

Under your idea, would the new secondary reserve be on B&C like contracts? Ie MCpl Bloggins signs a six month contract to work at Saint Jean or Major Bloggins signs a 9 month contract to fill in for a reg force person on mat leave at the Meteorology school etc.....

[Army Guy]

 

I spend 3 years in the reserves before I switched reg force and in the 3 years there were many people I only saw once a month so that they can stay the right side of NES, others showed up to one or two exercises a year, the exercises that were indoors and easier. We need reserves where saying that there are 100 soldiers in the unit means that 100 soldiers parade and exercise on a regular basis rather than having 100 soldiers on paper and having the regular crew of 15-20 on every exercise and another 15-20 going on only one or two exercises a year.

There are some Communication Regiments/Squadrons that are wearing out their active troops because the majority don't show up, when an infantry regiment asks for a 3 men CP detachment and a signals regiment sends a 1 man detachment because 8 other C/S require a CP as well as a Brigade CP and you have only 10-12 to man the positions, we see the good soldiers who show up every parade night and go on every exercise leave because they do all the work and see that all of the higher positions are tied down by people that rarely if ever show up instead of kicking them out and having MCpl's, Sgts, and WO's that show up every exercise or as close to it as possible.

We need a reserve force that we can depend on and one where we can have permanent units that work well with each other year after year rather than having ad hoc units each exercise. We need to know that we have 20,000 army reserve means that it is a 20,000 army reserve rather than having 20,000 "trained" and 8,000-12,000 regularly on exercise if we are lucky. We need a reserve force that can augment the reg force but also one that can deploy its own units when/if it comes to that.

Hurting recruitment doesn't matter if those who are turned away are not the serious once... The idea I was proposing would be to split the reserves where its job would be to train and maintain x number of infantry battalions, armoured recce, engineers, service battalions etc... manned by reservists who have taken some steps to assure their reliability when it comes to attendance through a contract but as a result are more likely to be deployed as a unit. Right now we have 9 infantry battalions and x number of reserve infantry "regiments" some of which are platoon strength, so why not restructure the reserves to know exactly how many battalions we can deploy at any one time? Instead of forming units for specific missions and then manning them from throughout the CF reserves we can deploy a formed unit with only individuals brought in from other units to make up any shortcomings due to injuries etc...

My point is not to worry about the next big war and say to ourselves that we dealt with the last one well enough so we can deal with the next one, but to be able to field x number of battalions and support units within a short amount of time rather than spending weeks or months on end building up battalions from dozens of reserve units and sub units just to have a battalion deploy with zero unit cohesion because they have never worked together.

Exactly, three levels, Reg force, Primary reserve and secondary/supplemental(which is basically the same as todays Primary reserve). The new primary reserve will be on contract and will be equipped and trained to a standard equal to the reg force and have access to similar courses so that soldiers could easily transition from one to the other in times of need. Experience is much harder but at the same time with the contract based reserves we can guarantee that the little time they have to gain experience they will take advantage of it rather than not show up at all or only show up once in a while...

The idea is not to outfit all the reserves to the same standard as it is not likely to happen but having say 5,000 reservists on contract supported by 20,000 reserves who act as force generation, support, training and are manning the schools. The idea is to have a cohesive unit that can be on par with the reg force when it comes to deployment, just think about how bad it would be if before deploying 2 RCR DND decided to take out all the troops and man the battalions with 500 randomly selected soldiers led by an officer who does not know or barely knows his subordinates and soldiers who don't know each other or their superiors? It would work and they would get the job done but it should be done only in an emergency not when we have time to restructure so we don't keep doing the same thing to the reserves.

 

Having minimum attendence is the problem when A) your organization is only equiped with the minimum amount of gear, and it is not for the most part the same standard... Your leadership sees their jobs as a second job, and does not recieve 100% of their effort...In most cases because i've seen reservist in leadership postions that were damn fine soldiers....in fact the RSM of one of the Res Inf regts in Montreal, also teaches in the Reg force ALQ course...

I think by placing them under contract , forming entire units, so they can train regularly....the Reg force has a hard time doing this just not enough funding....and for the sake of having a couple of pre form units in the wings might as well expand the Reg force by another Brig....fill those spots with those Res Soldiers that want to take soldiering seriously Converting them to reg force....

I do want to stress this that those 10 to 15 Res soldiers that do show up are normally the ones that end up getting call outs to reg force units....which depend on these numbers to accomplish our taskings....the res play a vital role...i know there is always tones of talk about how all the Reg force trades are full, and they have stopped recruiting, We've hit our numbers etc but in the real world there are shortfalls all over...Reg force units are not up to par....if they were we would not need so many res filling in the blanks..

[Signals.Cpl]

*Disclaimer, just wanted to say that I’m aware that there are a great many Reserves of all the elements, commissioned and non, that contribute or have contributed greatly to the armed forces, and I don’t wish to come across as dumping on them.

Exactly, in my view, we’d be better off with 10k dedicated, deployable reserves, then 20k of a mixed bag……..If like you mention a unit of 100 only has 25 deployable personal, we’d be much better of focusing the resources spent on the 75 to the 25 in increased degrees of training, equipment and pay/benefits to equal out any financial losses they might occur form “neglecting” their “civilian careers”…………..I’d even be in favour of further programs aimed at subsidizing or forgiveness of student loans in exchange of lengthier service contracts……….

If we give units an

easier way to kick out troops who go NES soon after they go NES so that those

positions are freed up could be an advantage but my point is getting dedicated

troops in the units so that we can function as a cohesive and organized force rather

than pretend we are said force but only field a fraction of the troops we have

on paper. We need to demand more from the reserves when it comes to numbers on

effective strength.

I think with a focused approach, we could also find savings in closing & amalgamating many of the reserve units, well using said savings to fund other requirements.

I agree with you here but the problem is the regimental structure where regimental associations and the units themselves will fight this tooth and nail.

Without picking on anyone unit and looking at the lower mainland and Vancouver Island for example, wouldn’t we be better served by having one or two units made up of mixed MOCs for solely administration purposes, with employment and training conducted with reg force parent units?

………Do we need numerous “pretend” infantry regiments spread out over the Lower Mainland?

Yeah but West Coast reserve units will be at a disadvantage as there are no close by reg force infantry and armored units amongst others.

But to what purpose does the new supplemental reserve serve?

A Ready reserve oftrained personnel to reinforce both Regular Force units and Primary Reserveunits with trained troops, force generation for the Primary reserve and supporting the Primary reserve as well as manning the schools.

Under your idea, would the new secondary reserve be on B&C like contracts? Ie MCpl Bloggins signs a six month contract to work at Saint Jean or Major Bloggins signs a 9 month contract to fill in for a reg force person on mat leave at the Meteorology school etc.....

Contracts would be along the lines of a regular force contract, say for 2-4 years where you are obligated to serve x number of days a year, obviously there has to be leeway as this is a part-time job so if there is a reasonable request to cut the contract short then by all means do so but the idea is to sign an obligation that you will in fact belong to those units for a certain amount of time. There will obviously be a large turnover rate with people leaving once they finish initial contract because many would be in college/university and civilian jobs take over after but for the time being you have troops that have taken the obligation to serve in a particular role for an extended period of time. The more promising soldiers with potential could be posted to reg Force units for the summers to gain experience or even full year stints with the reg force in order to gain experience and return to their units with that experience so that they can improve their unit performance. The troops who came back from Afghanistan in my old unit were invaluable because they brought in the operational side and basically taught us based on their experience whether they were a Cpl, MCpl a Sgt or a WO.

I remember reading that during World War One the PM promised the allies that the Canadian Divisions will be at 100% strength at all times, a secondary/supplemental reserve could make sure that the Primary contract based reserve units are at all times near the 100% strength. In Wartime we would have further troops that could form more units or supplement/reinforce the existing units should they take casualties but the Reg Force and the contract reserve units would be essentially our first line of defense. In an emergency we would have 9 Reg force infantry battalions and another 3-5 Reserve battalions on contract to be able to deploy within say 5 days in an emergency with advance party on the ground within 48-72h.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Signals.Cpl

[Signals.Cpl]

   

Having minimum attendence is the problem when A) your organization is only equiped with the minimum amount of gear, and it is not for the most part the same standard... Your leadership sees their jobs as a second job, and does not recieve 100% of their effort...In most cases because i've seen reservist in leadership postions that were damn fine soldiers....in fact the RSM of one of the Res Inf regts in Montreal, also teaches in the Reg force ALQ course...

I think by placing them under contract , forming entire units, so they can train regularly....the Reg force has a hard time doing this just not enough funding....and for the sake of having a couple of pre form units in the wings might as well expand the Reg force by another Brig....fill those spots with those Res Soldiers that want to take soldiering seriously Converting them to reg force....

I do want to stress this that those 10 to 15 Res soldiers that do show up are normally the ones that end up getting call outs to reg force units....which depend on these numbers to accomplish our taskings....the res play a vital role...i know there is always tones of talk about how all the Reg force trades are full, and they have stopped recruiting, We've hit our numbers etc but in the real world there are shortfalls all over...Reg force units are not up to par....if they were we would not need so many res filling in the blanks..

The gear is for us to complain about but we always did our job no matter how riddiculous the situation was, but as for the leadership part I agree with you 100%, my unit had a CO who was working his ass off as he was the CO one unit and Acting CO of two other units in three cities and he worked hard and I cannot have a complaint about him but some of the officers were there for the other reasons than to be leaders, they wanted a salute, feel important and leave. Same goes for many of the Senior NCMs in some of the units I worked with but at the same time I remember a number of units who had amazing leadership who I would gladly follow in a warzone.

The reserves are cheaper than the reg force, you dont need a reservists you send him home and he does not get paid, you dont need a reg force soldier you send him home he still gets paid and still gets medical and dental so the price is lower with the reserves.

If the Reg force battalions addopt a single reserve company to train we could essentialy have 3 mechanized Battalions trained and equiped to the same standard as their reg force counterparts because they will be trained by and with their reg force counterparts.

38 Brigade

1 Mec Coy with supporting units

33 Brigade

2 Mec Coy with supporting units

34 and 35 Brigades

3 Mec Coy's with supporting units between the 2 brigades

37 Brigade

2 Mec Coy with supporting units

41 Brigade

2 Mec Coy with supporting units

Brigades with no nearby Reg force units might field a light infantry coy to fill out 3 light infantry battalions.

We could have 3 Mechanized infantry and 3 light infantry with assorted troops for the price of 1 of each if it were reg force so essentialy if push came to shove we can field up to 15 battalions and supporting units for the price of 11 battalions and supporting units and at the same time we will have thousands of trained troops for reinforcements, man the schools and field new units.

[Guest Derek L]

If we give units an

easier way to kick out troops who go NES soon after they go NES so that those

positions are freed up could be an advantage but my point is getting dedicated

troops in the units so that we can function as a cohesive and organized force rather

than pretend we are said force but only field a fraction of the troops we have

on paper. We need to demand more from the reserves when it comes to numbers on

effective strength.

But how cohesive of a force would you have if you couldn’t muster a Company, let alone a Platoon size force?

But I agree, we should be demanding more of the organization and leadership of the Reserves across all elements.

I agree with you here but the problem is the regimental structure where regimental associations and the units themselves will fight this tooth and nail.

Agree 100%, but at the end of the day, who leads who………….Throw them a bone, and offer if they are capable, a company sized formation part of larger overall regiment, bestowed with said regiments name & honours……..If they can’t maintain 120-200 effective personal, well said regiment goes into the history books……

Yeah but West Coast reserve units will be at a disadvantage as there are no close by reg force infantry and armored units amongst others.

That would only be applicable to the Combat Arms units………Purple trades, Navy and Air Force wouldn’t be effected………

Or as I said above, amalgamation. In Greater Vancouver, there are two reserve infantry “regiments”, an Armoured Reconnaissance “regiment”, an Artillery “regiment”, a Service Support “Battalion” and a sig squadron……..Plus HMCS Discovery and several RCAF support units out in Abbotsford (About an hours drive from the city)……..And all at different facilities……Now the Naval and maybe even the RCAF units make sense, but you’d think the Land Force units could be combined into a “combined arms reserve Battalion” at a single location for Parade night, with individual MOC training conducted every couple of months in Alberta……Vancouver to Edmonton in just over an hour by WestJet……….

A Ready reserve oftrained personnel to reinforce both Regular Force units and Primary Reserveunits with trained troops, force generation for the Primary reserve and supporting the Primary reserve as well as manning the schools.

So in a sense, former members that would require little in terms of investment for training?

Contracts would be along the lines of a regular force contract, say for 2-4 years where you are obligated to serve x number of days a year, obviously there has to be leeway as this is a part-time job so if there is a reasonable request to cut the contract short then by all means do so but the idea is to sign an obligation that you will in fact belong to those units for a certain amount of time. There will obviously be a large turnover rate with people leaving once they finish initial contract because many would be in college/university and civilian jobs take over after but for the time being you have troops that have taken the obligation to serve in a particular role for an extended period of time. The more promising soldiers with potential could be posted to reg Force units for the summers to gain experience or even full year stints with the reg force in order to gain experience and return to their units with that experience so that they can improve their unit performance. The troops who came back from Afghanistan in my old unit were invaluable because they brought in the operational side and basically taught us based on their experience whether they were a Cpl, MCpl a Sgt or a WO.

Sounds an awful lot like what we have now………

[Signals.Cpl]

But how cohesive of a force would you have if you couldn’t muster a Company, let alone a Platoon size force?

Look at 32 Brigade, there are 6 light infantry units and from my experience they field 70 or more soldiers per exercise on average so expecting them to supply a primary reserve light infantry company with as little as 20 soldiers each and we have the company there, so basically we get dedicated troops in one formation, troops who want to be there and know that if they slack off there are a dozen other soldiers waiting for their chance.

Agree 100%, but at the end of the day, who leads who………….Throw them a bone, and offer if they are capable, a company sized formation part of larger overall regiment, bestowed with said regiments name & honours……..If they can’t maintain 120-200 effective personal, well said regiment goes into the history books……

I personally have no problem letting a platoon even carry on the name and traditions of a regiment if it will keep people content as long as the platoon is led by an Lt rather than an LtCol.

That would only be applicable to the Combat Arms units………Purple trades, Navy and Air Force wouldn’t be effected………

Ultimately they are the most important segment thought right? We don't have the guys who kick doors down.

Or as I said above, amalgamation. In Greater Vancouver, there are two reserve infantry “regiments”, an Armoured Reconnaissance “regiment”, an Artillery “regiment”, a Service Support “Battalion” and a sig squadron……..Plus HMCS Discovery and several RCAF support units out in Abbotsford (About an hours drive from the city)……..And all at different facilities……Now the Naval and maybe even the RCAF units make sense, but you’d think the Land Force units could be combined into a “combined arms reserve Battalion” at a single location for Parade night, with individual MOC training conducted every couple of months in Alberta……Vancouver to Edmonton in just over an hour by WestJet……….

I would say that having a small cadre of combat arms instructors go out west and set up a training centre would be more beneficial and cost-effective than sending 100 or more soldiers over to Edmonton for a weekend every couple of months. We should work within our geographic situation if a Reserve brigade is located close to a base with Regular Force Combat arms units then they should take advantage, if a brigade is not so conveniently located then they should adopt a different role for example 39 Brigade would field a light infantry Coy which would specialize in mountain and Arctic Warfare, whereas 38 CBG can field a Mechanized coy which would be attached to 2 PPCLI which would house major equipment on base and assist with their training while out east brigades close to Gagetown would field 1 Mec coy and other that are farther away will field light infantry specializing in Naval Operations or something along those lines.

So in a sense, former members that would require little in terms of investment for training?

Not quite, Secondary reserve would be kept current on their training, would man the schools during the summers so that instead of sending people from the Primary reserve to teach courses we can send the Primary reserve on exercises to gain experience and more training. The Idea is for deployments like Afghanistan it gives us more depth when it comes to choice for deployable personnel .

Sounds an awful lot like what we have now………

Not quite, right now you don't have to justify much, if you show up once every 30 days you don't have to worry about it, so if you are senior NCM that 3h a month could for years on end could mean that you are keeping a senior position occupied without doing much to help the unit. Sometimes circumstances get ahead of people and they have to work around it so telling someone that you are signing 2 or 3 year contract that you CANT get out of no matter what and they get fired or laid off from their job they can't look outside their geographic area means they will either not sign the contract out of fear or stay and miss opportunities in civi career which is not good for moral. This is also where the second layer of the Reserves comes in where someone is released from the primary reserve immediately a replacement is sent rather than having to train and equip a soldier from from nothing in effect we can guarantee 100% strength or close to it at all times. So the CDS knows that there are 3,4 or 5 battalions with support units near to 100% strength at all times in the reserves and those units are ready to support the Reg Force at any time.

[Smallc]

So, about those ships....

[Guest Derek L]

Look at 32 Brigade, there are 6 light infantry units and from my experience they field 70 or more soldiers per exercise on average so expecting them to supply a primary reserve light infantry company with as little as 20 soldiers each and we have the company there, so basically we get dedicated troops in one formation, troops who want to be there and know that if they slack off there are a dozen other soldiers waiting for their chance.

Or look at 39 CBG………..They have approx 1500 members…….In a “Brigade”, commanded by a Colonel with staff, with Lieutenant Colonels commanding “regiments” with staff………..There is no reason for this associated top down bloat……..1500 multi service & trade members…….What ’s that…..two Battalions or a combined arms “Battle Group”?

The empire building and excess (like Ottawa for reg force) is where many of the PRes problems stem from…….realistically, in a major war, Canada is never going to generate a combined arms Brigade out of 39 CBG……So why delude ourselves?

Ultimately they are the most important segment thought right? We don't have the guys who kick doors down.

What good are faux regiments of death techs in a CBG if we’d be lucky to field a company or two? And what if the balloon goes up and half the force can’t deploy because of exams?

I would say that having a small cadre of combat arms instructors go out west and set up a training centre would be more beneficial and cost-effective than sending 100 or more soldiers over to Edmonton for a weekend every couple of months. We should work within our geographic situation if a Reserve brigade is located close to a base with Regular Force Combat arms units then they should take advantage, if a brigade is not so conveniently located then they should adopt a different role for example 39 Brigade would field a light infantry Coy which would specialize in mountain and Arctic Warfare, whereas 38 CBG can field a Mechanized coy which would be attached to 2 PPCLI which would house major equipment on base and assist with their training while out east brigades close to Gagetown would field 1 Mec coy and other that are farther away will field light infantry specializing in Naval Operations or something along those lines.

Set-up a training center for a couple of companies? That’s crazy……..DND needs to divest itself of real estate, not increase it…….An entire company (120) from the lower mainland would cost $30000-40000 bucks return flying WestJet from Vancouver to Edmonton………Four times a year..what? 160k? The cost of just four members salaries for your small training cadre……..If flying Commercial is too much, put them in the back of a Globemaster……..

Then you enable said reservists to train with the reg force units and using the actual equipment that they would deploy with………All in an area that we actually already have……..Hell, a couple of corporals could probably even coordinate having the reserve companies from all Land Force Western Area meet at the same time…….

The idea of mating up personal with their equipment in a different geographic region via air is hardly new….And does work…

Not quite, right now you don't have to justify much, if you show up once every 30 days you don't have to worry about it, so if you are senior NCM that 3h a month could for years on end could mean that you are keeping a senior position occupied without doing much to help the unit. Sometimes circumstances get ahead of people and they have to work around it so telling someone that you are signing 2 or 3 year contract that you CANT get out of no matter what and they get fired or laid off from their job they can't look outside their geographic area means they will either not sign the contract out of fear or stay and miss opportunities in civi career which is not good for moral. This is also where the second layer of the Reserves comes in where someone is released from the primary reserve immediately a replacement is sent rather than having to train and equip a soldier from from nothing in effect we can guarantee 100% strength or close to it at all times. So the CDS knows that there are 3,4 or 5 battalions with support units near to 100% strength at all times in the reserves and those units are ready to support the Reg Force at any time.

Or how about we concentrate on fixing all the problems inflicted upon the regular force first, the worry about making two separate reserve forces?

[Guest Derek L]

So, about those ships....

Hey, I brought up something about them several pages back and you disappeared........And the thread drifted slightly...You new here or something