Shipbuilding contracts

[Smallc]

And in the meantime, 600 workers at Davie will be out of work over the holidays and our navy will be two months further put out.......if Trudeau goes ahead with an interim option that is.

I support this project. I'm not sure I support how it was done. Your defence is also a weak one, considering your position on a theoretical Bombardier bailout and the thousands of workers involved in that case.

[Derek 2.0]

I support this project. I'm not sure I support how it was done. Your defence is also a weak one, considering your position on a theoretical Bombardier bailout and the thousands of workers involved in that case.

What's not to be sure about? The law allowing it was cited, and the process confirmed by the shipbuilding association, the very same group that lambasted the previous Government........hence this is a political move by the Trudeau Liberals.

And this has nothing to do with Bombardier, as the C-series isn't critical to the navy, nor did the previous Government sign an agreement with them supporting their business decision.

[Smallc]

What's not to be sure about? The law allowing it was cited, and the process confirmed by the shipbuilding association, the very same group that lambasted the previous Government........hence this is a political move by the Trudeau Liberals.

Every move is a political move. As for the law cited, the problem is that it was invented for this very case.

And this has nothing to do with Bombardier, as the C-series isn't critical to the navy, nor did the previous Government sign an agreement with them supporting their business decision.

Davie is not, in the long run, critical to the navy either. That, and you shouldn't start a project until it's actually a done deal in a case like this.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

Every move is a political move. As for the law cited, the problem is that it was invented for this very case.

The law allowing sole sourced contracts has been around for decades.

Davie is not, in the long run, critical to the navy either. That, and you shouldn't start a project until it's actually a done deal in a case like this.

I never said Davie was, but the GoC already entered into a contract with Davie, which in turn purchased the Asterix on behalf of the GoC.......if Trudeau bails on the program, Davie will be more than reimbursed for the ship, but that doesn't help our navy, nor the employees at Davie.

[Smallc]

The law allowing sole sourced contracts has been around for decades.

The cabinet rules were changed for this particular case. There was obviously a reason for doing so.

I never said Davie was, but the GoC already entered into a contract with Davie, which in turn purchased the Asterix on behalf of the GoC.......if Trudeau bails on the program, Davie will be more than reimbursed for the ship, but that doesn't help our navy, nor the employees at Davie.

There is an MOU from what I understand, which includes a financial clause leaving Canada liable for $89M if they back out. There is no contract. If there were, it wouldn't have come up in cabinet for approval.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Smallc

[Derek 2.0]

The cabinet rules were changed for this particular case. There was obviously a reason for doing so.

What "Cabinet rules"? The law governing the GoC procuring items and services was changed to allow sole sourced leasing.....the reason is clear, the GoC didn't intend to purchase the vessel.

There is an MOU from what I understand, which includes a financial clause leaving Canada liable for $89M if they back out. There is no contract. If there were, it wouldn't have come up in cabinet for approval.

A MOU is a contract.........Davie wouldn't spend tens of millions on a container ship, nor would the GoC be obligated to return money to Davie, without a legal contract

What is waiting cabinet approval is the release of the initial funds for the contractual lease........If the GoC walks away from legal agreements, signed in good (and legal) faith, going forward, they will find the private sector far more difficult to deal with, and like a third world despot, will require money upfront.

This is a political move on the part of the Trudeau Liberals, and one that only benefits themselves..........Do you really think the Tories or NDP, if the program went along as planned, would have attacked the GoC on this? Really? This is about spending money, needed by the military, when the Liberals have other interests.....there is no plausible reason for the delay and you can bet if this was in a Liberal riding, it would go forward.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[Smallc]

there is no plausible reason for the delay and you can bet if this was in a Liberal riding, it would go forward.

The Liberals have a riding right across the river. This is about the process. No matter what it costs the government money by the end of the month, so what you're alleging makes no sense. The rules were changed in secret, something Trudeau campaigned against. That is the rationale here.

[Smallc]

It was a letter of intent, not a contract:

The letter of intent signed by the government offers Davie $89-million if the finalized contract is not signed by Nov. 30.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-supply-ship-liberals-halt-1.3327039

The contract, like so many others with the Harper government, was left unsigned and on someone else's plate.

[bush_cheney2004]

Irving knows just how shaky GoC contracts are, otherwise it would not be complaining about Davie's small $700m refit contract when Irving had been selected for the lion's share of new "combat package" replacement ships ($25 billion).

Like mice, these desperate shipyards are fighting over scarce crumbs.

Edited November 24, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

It was a letter of intent, not a contract:

The letter of intent signed by the government offers Davie $89-million if the finalized contract is not signed by Nov. 30.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-supply-ship-liberals-halt-1.3327039

The contract, like so many others with the Harper government, was left unsigned and on someone else's plate.

You know not what you speak...........Quebec case law......next

And if the deal was finalized, you'd be bitching that Harper saddled Trudeau with a "bad deal" when Irving offered a better one

[Smallc]

I was in favour of the deal when it was signed. I still am.

[Derek 2.0]

The Liberals have a riding right across the river. This is about the process. No matter what it costs the government money by the end of the month, so what you're alleging makes no sense. The rules were changed in secret, something Trudeau campaigned against. That is the rationale here.

By not following through on the lease, it costs the Government far less.........see EH 101 cancellation fees. And as already cited, the "process" allows for non-tendered contracts when there is an urgent demand.

[Derek 2.0]

Irving knows just how shaky GoC contracts are, otherwise it would not be complaining about Davie's small $700m refit contract when Irving had been selected for the lion's share of new "combat package" replacement ships ($25 billion).

Like mice, these desperate shipyards are fighting over scarce crumbs.

Exactly, but such sour grapes and Government do-overs aren't only found in Canada....see KC-X program.......but in this case, there is no logical reason for it, as neither the Tories or NDP would have made a stink over it if the Government had of followed through....it makes zero sense, other than Irving is found within the Liberal dominated East Coast and/or the Government has other spending priorities..

[bush_cheney2004]

By not following through on the lease, it costs the Government far less.........see EH 101 cancellation fees. And as already cited, the "process" allows for non-tendered contracts when there is an urgent demand.

This...what we have seen time and time again. Delay....pay cancellation fees....hem and haw...anything but actual commitment to a procurement. It's not the ships, or planes, or rotary-winged aircraft....it's the process.

When circumstances make the political pain too great (e.g. Afghanistan with no Chinooks or heavy airlift), then decisions are begrudgingly made and money is spent.

[Smallc]

Seaspan weighs in:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/seaspan-could-provide-interim-supply-ship-to-canadian-navy-faster-and-cheaper-says-firms-ceo

[sophia144]

Whichever yard wins, their fist work is pretty much ready to go. The arctic offshore patrol ships will start construction in July - August 2012, and the offshore oceanographic science vessel around the same time. The offshore fisheries science vessels should be ready to start not long after, and the JSS, within a year or so.

I would expect the Canadian surface combatant to be ready for construction within 3 -4 years....which mean's the Iroquois Class will probably need another refit if they want to keep them in service until the new ships are built.

So raisonly,i aghree with that www.etuicoquesamsung.com etuicoquesamsung.com

Edited November 27, 2015 by sophia144

[Smallc]

Wow, was I ever off (that's what I get for trusting the media ha).

[Smallc]

The Harper Government: mishandling procurement since 2006.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/shipbuilding-procurement-action-plan-1.3336604

This will test the current government's commitment to their promises for the navy and coast guard.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Smallc

[Argus]

The Harper Government: mishandling procurement since 2006.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/shipbuilding-procurement-action-plan-1.3336604

This will test the current governments commitment to their promises for the navy and coast guard.

Cancel the program and use the money to buy ships from the US or Europe at a fraction of the cost.

[Smallc]

Cancel the program and use the money to buy ships from the US or Europe at a fraction of the cost.

You'd get no argument from me.

[Derek 2.0]

The Harper Government: mishandling procurement since 2006.

Except your link doesn't suggest that, stating in the case of Seaspan:

That project was awarded to the Seaspan's Vancouver Shipyard. The briefing assigned no blame but suggested there were improvements the B.C.-based shipbuilder could make.

"Vancouver Shipyards needed to find skilled staff, establish capability to increase design work and learn how to use new facilities," the briefing material said.

The same company you linked to above, that they state they can build an interim AOR, like Irving, cheaper than Davie..........which begs the question, why can't Seaspan or Irving build the billions of dollars worth of vessels contracted to them?

This will test the current governments commitment to their promises for the navy and coast guard.

The Coast Guard will get theirs, the navy, not a chance..........

[Derek 2.0]

Cancel the program and use the money to buy ships from the US or Europe at a fraction of the cost.

What money? The Liberals don't have $35 billion+ built into their four year spending plans, this will be their excuse to "reexamine" the requirements of the GoC and punt the program, outside those vessels already paid for by the Harper Government (The several CCG and AOPS vessels).

[Argus]

What money? The Liberals don't have $35 billion+ built into their four year spending plans, this will be their excuse to "reexamine" the requirements of the GoC and punt the program, outside those vessels already paid for by the Harper Government (The several CCG and AOPS vessels).

No, no, Smallc has assured us the Liberals care deeply about the navy.

[Smallc]

I see a lot of speculation coloured by partisanship. Until I see actual evidence I'll have to wait and see. The Conservatives had planned to have the AORs started and the CSC contract signed within this mandate. The (insufficient) money is there for those things.

[Derek 2.0]

No, no, Smallc has assured us the Liberals care deeply about the navy.

This is not in doubt, and is eerily similar to what PET did to the navy (military) on entering office, retiring our last aircraft carrier (despite just finishing a refit that would have allowed her to serve into the 1980s), reducing the destroyer program down to four and cancelling the destroyer escort replacement program (guided missile frigates) in the late 60s......

The Coast Guard vessels will get built, the AOPS for the navy have already been paid for, but I'll predict our last destroyer will go next year and the subs won't be too far behind. If they decide to purchase a converted AOR (be from Davie, Irving or Seaspan), the navy will be lucky to get a second one, and that will be it for the purpose built AORs, likewise, the navy will be lucky to keep all 12 of the frigates, but I wouldn't be surprised if some are put into "reduced operating status" (like PET did with a portion of our old destroyer escorts in the 70s) as the AOPS come online.