Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 To be clear, I'm not advocating for the NDP either. I'm just saying that of the 3 branches of the military, the one that doesn't need to worry about an NDP government is the navy. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I'm talking about the election promises thus far. What election promise? The NDP policy manual was posted by Socialist in another thread: I can't find the link at the moment but I saved it to my computer. It reads:a Defending Canadian sovereignty militarily, socially and economically. b Ensuring our armed forces are well-equipped with the necessary human and material resources for their operations. c Affirming that the primary purpose of the Canadian Forces is peace-keeping, defence and support during emergencies. d Defending our territorial waters, especially the Arctic. e Standing against nuclear arms build-up and rejecting any ballistic missile defence program. f Prioritizing peace operations for each of our armed forces. There's more. I don't support most of that, but the navy need not worry, it seems. That reads like the 2011 policy paper, but if current......points "C", "D", "E" and "F" should very much read as worrisome to the RCN.........why does the RCN need subs and guided missile destroyers and frigates to defend our waters and conduct UN peace keeping overseas? NDP= No subs, no destroyers and no frigates........to be replaced by cutters. Apply that to the Army, which will no longer need expensive tanks, upgraded LAVs, TLAVs, heavy support weapons and artillery to act as Peacekeepers or to fight forest fires. To the RCAF, there will be no longer a need for the expensive fighter force (New Zealand and Ireland don't have one after all!!!), likewise the CP-140s can be replaced with unarmed, Quebec produced, DASH 8s, since we won't need a war fighting capability......no need for the expensive mission suite for the Cyclones, since we won't be conducting ASW operations......why do we need all those aggressive looking CH-146s? Surely we could retire/sell half, and use the remainder for SAR...... As I've said, if you truly think the NDP would not be a disaster on the Forces........ Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I didn't advocate for two programs, I was agreeing with you. Fair enough. Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I'm not convinced that the NDP would be a disaster for the navy. For the other forces, I agree, but they seem to have a spot for the navy. You're not going to get a tomahawk missiles I'm sure, but defending our waters will require weapons similar to what we currently use. Quote
Army Guy Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I'm largely opposed to protectionism, but in the case of warship construction, we most certainly could purchase cheaper vessels offshore, but in doing so, will result in the demise of the remaining shipbuilding industry in Canada. With the demise of shipbuilding as a whole, so to goes the ability to repair our own ships.......and that is a strategic mistake......hence we pay a premium for domestically produced ships........like we do we with other Canadian industries or Canadian subsidiaries of Western Defense giants. First, comparing media reports of other nation's purchases is a fools errand.......in most cases, said price tags aren't inclusive of subsidies to industry, training or operating costs (like how programs in Canada must include said figures) Second, with the British example, as already noted, their AORs are operated by the civilian staffed Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The ships they are producing will be less capable (built to civilian standards also) then our eventual Queenston class. Likewise, the British shipbuilding industry receives large subsidies from the HM Government and though in a period of decline since the 1970s, has been continually building ships as opposed to a boom-bust cycle like what we have in Canada Why a separate program? Like i've stated derek i'm treading water in the deep end when it comes down things navy. so i have a few questions. what does cape scott do if not repair ships, in the army we have 1 st line, 2 and line and 3 rd line repair , what does cape scott do, and who does our 3 rd line repairs now Irving ship yards am guessing.... And i get your theory, we need to know how to repair and build ships, but is there any options like a military run shipyard , cape scott but much larger run by a civilian component with military over sight. or can we use our allieds capabilities like the US... Next where is the line in the sand to keep these abilities alive....and if these companies were truily interested in navy ship building what have they done to keep current. and i can see the companies point of view here as well, waiting for the government to pay for a war ship is like waiting for the next lunar landing.....but have they proposed any designs to our military, or any other nations, what are they doing to keep current . from here it looks like they wait for their hand outs..... Maybe it would be worth the investment to improve DND ship repair capabilities, and expand on the other capabilities like ship design etc.... As for the British AOR's , if they were built to Navy standards would they still be cheaper, and faster to complete. one more question why do we need a Navy standard AOR. do we operate differently.... The coast guard is a different dept, with a whole new set of requirements, requirements that need a separate venue to look at this whole dept.....in a lot more depth.....it feels like they been added to lessen the blow on convincing tax payers on the bill....that and the fact that these guys have been at the bottom of the pile for decades and could use a lot more ships than what has been promised to them. Another reason is here is a chance to even the score, perhaps take some pressure of the navy by being those guys that did fishery patrols, help the RCMP with drug interventions, assisted with SAR more. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 To be clear, I'm not advocating for the NDP either. I'm just saying that of the 3 branches of the military, the one that doesn't need to worry about an NDP government is the navy. What NDP policy aligns with costly guided missile frigates and destroyers to support UN Peacekeeping and domestic disaster operations.....when said missions can be done with far cheaper OPV or cutters? The subs will go right away, and the frigates will stagnate until replaced by cheerful fisheries patrol vessels........ Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 What NDP policy aligns with costly guided missile frigates and destroyers to support UN Peacekeeping and domestic disaster operations.....when said missions can be done with far cheaper OPV or cutters? The subs will go right away, and the frigates will stagnate until replaced by cheerful fisheries patrol vessels........ The subs will probably go. The surface fleet will be renewed with like vessels as it can be built in Canada. http://www.ndp.ca/news/statement-official-opposition-defence-critic-jack-harris-shipbuilding-announcement http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/19/ndp-decries-decommissioning-of-naval-destroyers Why would the NDP care if the destroyers were decommissioned if they have no use for them? http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ndp-slams-conservatives-over-lack-of-decision-on-naval-supply-ship-1.2395503 Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I really dislike being put in the position of defending the NDP, but dishonesty from either side side isn't useful. The NDP fully supports the RCN, and there's no evidence to the contrary. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 I'm not convinced that the NDP would be a disaster for the navy. For the other forces, I agree, but they seem to have a spot for the navy. You're not going to get a tomahawk missiles I'm sure, but defending our waters will require weapons similar to what we currently use. No, the new navy will mimic the Irish "Naval" service......of which has little need for anti-ship missiles, air defense or anti-submarine warfare armed vessels......You just provided, what you feel is a current platform, which aligns with past NDP policy papers, in addition to NDP "defense experts" (Steven Staples and Mike Byers) statements on their vision of a future force......... Quote
Army Guy Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 In the event of a major war, what solace would you have in knowing, for example, when you broke your C7 it had to be sent to Korea to be fixed? We could certainly replace the C7/C8s with a far cheaper Chinese rifle......how does that grab you? It would avoid corporate welfare to Colt Canada.... OK i get it now , but in defense Colt canada is in the business of selling rifles, and has been activily selling them around the globe and uses profits to keep current with a huge R&D budget....Plus the fact that DND can pretty much repair anything that breaks, and as i mentioned why can't we as in DND fix our own ships... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 The subs will probably go. The surface fleet will be renewed with like vessels as it can be built in Canada. http://www.ndp.ca/news/statement-official-opposition-defence-critic-jack-harris-shipbuilding-announcement http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/19/ndp-decries-decommissioning-of-naval-destroyers Why would the NDP care if the destroyers were decommissioned if they have no use for them? http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ndp-slams-conservatives-over-lack-of-decision-on-naval-supply-ship-1.2395503 They don't care........they Oppose the Government.......if the Government stated they intended to lease six Burke destroyers from the Americans, they would oppose that too Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 They don't care........they Oppose the Government So you'll only accept the evidence that you provide, then? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 The NDP fully supports the RCN, and there's no evidence to the contrary. Except past policy papers and statements for their intended purpose of the Canadian Forces....... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 So you'll only accept the evidence that you provide, then? I just accepted your uncited link you got from Socialist, which confirms exactly that........ Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 Except past policy papers and statements for their intended purpose of the Canadian Forces....... Then why be so critical in the direction of wanting more available assets? http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/michael-byers-sorry-nato-were-fresh-out-of-warships Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 Without its own support ships, Canada will be unable to deploy task groups from either coast. Yet geopolitical tensions -- as exist today in Ukraine and the South China Sea -- could well necessitate sending ships across oceans. Canada's only option then would be to assign our Halifax-class frigates to U.S. task groups, at no small loss to national control -- and to our stature in the world. http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/03/05/Navy-Steamships/ Why would the NDP care? You told me that they don't support this kind of thing. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 OK i get it now , but in defense Colt canada is in the business of selling rifles, and has been activily selling them around the globe and uses profits to keep current with a huge R&D budget....Plus the fact that DND can pretty much repair anything that breaks, and as i mentioned why can't we as in DND fix our own ships... Without Canadian defense contracts, Colt Canada would cease to exist........even the future of Colt itself is in doubt after losing several DoD bids. ------- We do perform routine repairs, but major repairs are far more efficient in the hands of private industry.........and of course, when private yards aren't fixing Government ships, their expertise allows them to bid on commercial refits. Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 From the article you dismissed earlier: Harris promised that improving Canada’s Navy would be a priority of an NDP government. Liberal candidate Andrew Leslie, a retired lieutenant-general and the co-chair of Justin Trudeau’s International Affairs Council, told Maclean’s the situation is a crisis, and claims that fixing the Navy would be “just about the top priority” for a Liberal government. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-sinking-of-the-canadian-navy/ Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 Then why be so critical in the direction of wanting more available assets? http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/michael-byers-sorry-nato-were-fresh-out-of-warships A political stick to wack the Government with........... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 From the article you dismissed earlier: Harris promised that improving Canada’s Navy would be a priority of an NDP government. Liberal candidate Andrew Leslie, a retired lieutenant-general and the co-chair of Justin Trudeau’s International Affairs Council, told Maclean’s the situation is a crisis, and claims that fixing the Navy would be “just about the top priority” for a Liberal government. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-sinking-of-the-canadian-navy/ Define "Improving" and "fixing". Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 A political stick to wack the Government with........... You asked me for evidence of NDP support of the navy. If you're going to dismiss it all, there's not much I can do. Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Define "Improving" and "fixing". Anyone could say the same thing of unfulfilled Conservative promises. The opposition has just as much credibility in this area. I wish that weren't true, but post 2008, the Conservatives really dropped the ball. Edited August 17, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 You asked me for evidence of NDP support of the navy. If you're going to dismiss it all, there's not much I can do. No there isn't, of course, you could start by providing actual commitments by the NDP on the direction they feel the navy will actually go, as opposed to vague cliches aligning with the dogma of their leftist, anti-war, base. Quote
Smallc Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 No there isn't, of course, you could start by providing actual commitments by the NDP on the direction they feel the navy will actually go, as opposed to vague cliches aligning with the dogma of their leftist, anti-war, base. That's really all we have from the Conservatives at this point. A placeholder budget figure for the CSC, no defined requirements, a commitment for 'up to 15' (it won't be 15) ships. The Conservatives have failed on this file and it leaves them open to much criticism. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 17, 2015 Report Posted August 17, 2015 Anyone could say the same thing of unfulfilled Conservative promises. The opposition has just as much credibility in this area. I wish that weren't true, but post 2008, the Conservatives really dropped the ball. Anyone could, but they would be an ass.........the Conservatives have a clearly outlined plan on the direction of the Canadian Forces.........and how have the Conservatives dropped the ball? You realize the first AOPS is being built, and interim AOR was just funded and SEASPAN has already started on the West Coast their work share of the National Shipbuilding Strategy.......... As I said, show me one modern navy, without a viable domestic shipbuilding industry, that can put first rate hulls in the water inside a decade.......The Royal Navy started designing the Type 45s in the 80s, only to commission HMS Daring over 20 years later........and they have a shipbuilding industry. Quote
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