OCCUPY

[dre]

Except the govt gave those unions special rights and privelages to tamper with the market themselves. An impartial market would have seen those union workers canned long ago. If the govt can interfere one way, it can another.

The problem is until there was unions and the government started interfering... the "market" was resulting in workers dying in large numbers from exposure to totally unncessary workplace hazards. These rules got created over time because people didnt like the things that were happening.

[jacee]

All right you show me where in the constitution an organization has the right to collect deductions from workers pay checks and force all workers at the job to join said organization no matter if they want to or not.

I'm increasingly underwhelmed by your comprehension of simple facts, blueblood.

Who's 'forcing' anybody?

They are free to work in a nonunion shop.

If you don't want a group insurance policy, or pension plan, you are free to work in a shop that has none.

If you choose to work in a union shop, and reap the benefits of collective bargaining, you share the cost.

The predators who fill your brain with such crap aren't helping you. You're on their menu.

Edited October 28, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

http://www.salon.com/2011/10/28/fighting_greedy_bankers_an_american_tradition/singleton/?mobile.html

Fighting greedy bankers, an American tradition Long before OWS, celebrated patriots from Jefferson to Lincoln battled powerful corrupting financiers.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Fighting greedy bankers, an American tradition Long before OWS, celebrated patriots from Jefferson to Lincoln battled powerful corrupting financiers.

Yay America! Gives you something to do.

[jacee]

But Canada’s tax and transfer system is not reducing income inequality as much as it did prior to 1994.

...

Between 1976 and 1994, the effect of the tax and transfer system was to increasingly reduce income inequality. Since 1994, however, the trend has reversed. In effect, while the tax and transfer system still plays an important role in reducing income inequality, the redistributive effect of the tax and transfer system has grown weaker since 1994.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/hot-topics/caninequality.aspx#ftn3-ref

And it's no secret why ... "cutbacks" ... now "austerity" ... but only for the poor and middle class as the rich get increasingly richer.

[bush_cheney2004]

...And it's no secret why ... "cutbacks" ... now "austerity" ... but only for the poor and middle class as the rich get increasingly richer.

Ummmm...yes...that's why we call them "rich".

[WWWTT]

All right you show me where in the constitution an organization has the right to collect deductions from workers pay checks and force all workers at the job to join said organization no matter if they want to or not.

Show me in the constitution where the government has to tax the middle class.Even if the middle clas likes it or not!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

All right you show me where in the constitution an organization has the right to collect deductions from workers pay checks and force all workers at the job to join said organization no matter if they want to or not.

You know why unions exist?

Pretty much the same reason why the police exist!

To protect the middle class from crooks!

Eliminating unions would be the same as eliminating the police!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Yay America! Gives you something to do.

Let me ask you something.

Is the word "America" your cue word to jump into the conversation?

Are you reading all the comments just looking for the word "America"

Or maybe any form of the word?

Such as "Americans" "Yankees" "US" "USA"

But "North America" doesn't qualify?

WWWTT

[blueblood]

I'm increasingly underwhelmed by your comprehension of simple facts, blueblood.

Who's 'forcing' anybody?

They are free to work in a nonunion shop.

If you don't want a group insurance policy, or pension plan, you are free to work in a shop that has none.

If you choose to work in a union shop, and reap the benefits of collective bargaining, you share the cost.

The predators who fill your brain with such crap aren't helping you. You're on their menu.

Oh just like black people in the south during Jim Crow were free to go to a black only restaurant/laundromat/water fountains/etc.

You do know they had an entire movement so that a race of people were free to work/eat/do laundry/etc. wherever they wanted to.

Who's forcing anybody indeed...

[blueblood]

Show me in the constitution where the government has to tax the middle class.Even if the middle clas likes it or not!

WWWTT

You brought up the constitution, not me.

You seem to forget that the gov't has the legal right to use force and unions don't, that's why we pay taxes and go to the clink if we don't.

Oh yes the unions protect the middle class from crooks, lets break people's legs for having an independent thought, lets raid bank accounts.

If the boss is a shitty boss, all the workers will quit and go work somewhere else. How is that diminishing union membership nationwide doing these days?

[blueblood]

The problem is until there was unions and the government started interfering... the "market" was resulting in workers dying in large numbers from exposure to totally unncessary workplace hazards. These rules got created over time because people didnt like the things that were happening.

And look where we are as a result of that, all the regulations and do-goodness sent your precious jobs overseas. Many people still die on the work place, have you looked at the stats for alaskan crab fishing, forestry and agriculture?

Henry Ford realized that workers were starting to get upset, he looked at labor market conditions and decided to pay his line workers unheard of wages and improved working conditions as technology would allow so they wouldn't unionize and drive up his costs further.

[CPCFTW]

Really?

Do you have a link that can prove unionized workers are demanding to be payed at an equivilent rate as profesional athletes?

Or are you making it up?

WWWTT

Are you serious? Talk about missing the point... No I don't have a link to "prove" my hypothetical situation/example.

I don't have a bank of propaganda blog posts to link to as "proof" like you lefties.

Edited October 29, 2011 by CPCFTW

[CPCFTW]

And who controls this "impartial" market?

Buyers and sellers.

If this were true then why did the conservative government legislate the posties and Air Canada employees back to work?

According to you the "impartial" market would handled everything perfectly well without the intervention of the conservative government!

WWWTT

Because unions are a distortion of the market. They create a monopoly on the supply of labour (for a particular industry/trade/etc.)

[CPCFTW]

Surely you must the see blatant contradictory elements in your silly explanation.

No I don't. Unless you think an aggregate is biased? If me and you were the only two people in the world, would our decisions be biased towards one or the other?

Edited October 29, 2011 by CPCFTW

[WWWTT]

Buyers and sellers.

Because unions are a distortion of the market. They create a monopoly on the supply of labour (for a particular industry/trade/etc.)

As for your first quote goes the answer is false!

The government exerts controls and regulations.

And as far as your second quote,what about the monopoly that the oil companies and the banks have?

WWWTT

[Shwa]

No I don't. Unless you think an aggregate is biased? If me and you were the only two people in the world, would our decisions be biased towards one or the other?

Beside the point that advertising tries to make the "aggregate" biased, we can leave that behind and simply ask you: when in the history of humankind has the "impartial market" in fact, even been impartial? You argue hypotheticals that have never existed.

What will you say next, the hand of God controls the market? (I jest, I really would like to know when, in all of human history, this impartial or free market has ever existed)

[Shwa]

And look where we are as a result of that, all the regulations and do-goodness sent your precious jobs overseas. Many people still die on the work place, have you looked at the stats for alaskan crab fishing, forestry and agriculture?

But the basic philosophy stands: there is government interference for a reason. Unions exist for a reason. The market has never been free, never been "impartial" and never will because "the market" cannot exist outside of social structure.

Henry Ford realized that workers were starting to get upset, he looked at labor market conditions and decided to pay his line workers unheard of wages and improved working conditions as technology would allow so they wouldn't unionize and drive up his costs further.

Somewhere along the line Ford's vision was distorted enough that his workers felt a union was necessary. Also, with the increased wages, his workers could buy his cars and thus he created a market within his own workforce who would buy his cars and put their money back into the company.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Shwa

[blueblood]

But the basic philosophy stands: there is government interference for a reason. Unions exist for a reason. The market has never been free, never been "impartial" and never will because "the market" cannot exist outside of social structure.

Somewhere along the line Ford's vision was distorted enough that his workers felt a union was necessary. Also, with the increased wages, his workers could buy his cars and thus he created a market within his own workforce who would buy his cars and put their money back into the company.

That reason is that some people want more than the market is allocating, thus they use their influence on gov't to create regulations and union powers. Companies in the late 1800s didn't bet on workers doing this and got complacent. How the workers got away with it was because employment levels were almost at maximum and there would be no workers to replace the ones who would get fired, and plus their voting numbers heavily influenced govt. So now we get more and more costs and regulations and now we're paying the price for that. In Japan, they saw this and the management of companies compensated their workers better to head off a situation like that. The market at work again. Management has to pay wages to workers what the labor market is demanding otherwise there is low productivity, labor strife, and labor works elsewhere, at the same time workers have to accept wages management is supplying according to labor market realities or the firm shuts down or finds a more attractive labor market. A firm cannot operate without profit or there is no incentive to operate.

The market of fords workers to buy his cars was insignificant to justify ford investing heavily in a state of the art assembly line by 1920 standards. The high wages were to ensure he kept his workers and tried to make them happy. They joined unions because at the time everyone else was.

[cybercoma]

The market is BS because 1) there will never be perfect information, and 2) there will always be more labour than jobs.

[Shwa]

That reason is that some people want more than the market is allocating, thus they use their influence on gov't to create regulations and union powers. Companies in the late 1800s didn't bet on workers doing this and got complacent. How the workers got away with it was because employment levels were almost at maximum and there would be no workers to replace the ones who would get fired, and plus their voting numbers heavily influenced govt. So now we get more and more costs and regulations and now we're paying the price for that. In Japan, they saw this and the management of companies compensated their workers better to head off a situation like that. The market at work again. Management has to pay wages to workers what the labor market is demanding otherwise there is low productivity, labor strife, and labor works elsewhere, at the same time workers have to accept wages management is supplying according to labor market realities or the firm shuts down or finds a more attractive labor market. A firm cannot operate without profit or there is no incentive to operate.

How the workers "got away with it" was the freedom to associate. You are trying to disconnect the market from politics, social structures, etc. That model doesn't work because you are ignoring the ability of the public to make its own determinations, even if they do it piece-meal by sector. The Japanese manager does not exist outside these social structures. Tell me what the Japanese manager was doing when Tokyo was producing war material for Hirohito. Or what he was doing when Tokyo was being firebobmed. I suppose you'll say war is just another intrusive government program on the free market.

The market of fords workers to buy his cars was insignificant to justify ford investing heavily in a state of the art assembly line by 1920 standards. The high wages were to ensure he kept his workers and tried to make them happy. They joined unions because at the time everyone else was.

His workers joined unions because "everyone else was?" LOFL! Funny how those social influences creep into the free market innit?

[blueblood]

How the workers "got away with it" was the freedom to associate. You are trying to disconnect the market from politics, social structures, etc. That model doesn't work because you are ignoring the ability of the public to make its own determinations, even if they do it piece-meal by sector. The Japanese manager does not exist outside these social structures. Tell me what the Japanese manager was doing when Tokyo was producing war material for Hirohito. Or what he was doing when Tokyo was being firebobmed. I suppose you'll say war is just another intrusive government program on the free market.

His workers joined unions because "everyone else was?" LOFL! Funny how those social influences creep into the free market innit?

Is collecting deductions off of paychecks and forcing all workers at said workplace to join part of freedom to associate? Nope, that's a govt power granted to unions.

The model works because there is a labor market. For example when I have hired help I have to pay wages in the same ballpark as a grunt gets on the oil rigs or the potash mine because if I don't that's where the worker goes! Same goes in the1920s and 1950s, everybody was employed and were thus able to obtain higher wages by manipulating a labor shortage to their advantage. The market at work

[WWWTT]

That reason is that some people want more than the market is allocating, thus they use their influence on gov't to create regulations and union powers. Companies in the late 1800s didn't bet on workers doing this and got complacent. How the workers got away with it was because employment levels were almost at maximum and there would be no workers to replace the ones who would get fired, and plus their voting numbers heavily influenced govt. So now we get more and more costs and regulations and now we're paying the price for that. In Japan, they saw this and the management of companies compensated their workers better to head off a situation like that. The market at work again. Management has to pay wages to workers what the labor market is demanding otherwise there is low productivity, labor strife, and labor works elsewhere, at the same time workers have to accept wages management is supplying according to labor market realities or the firm shuts down or finds a more attractive labor market. A firm cannot operate without profit or there is no incentive to operate.

Your just making stuff up buddy!

Unless you can provide a reliable link!

I believe unions are actually illegal in Japan!

But the working standards that the "government" imposes is far greater than any western nation!

The laws regulating the stock market aswell in Japan are far different!

Aswell it is common in Japan for CEO's to commit suicide when their company declares bankruptcy!How many CEO's do you see here doing that!

Man your freekin cherry pickin and making things up!

All Japan is is 150 million people(very hard working,skilled and educated) working a 60hr work week!Take that away and essentialy you have Indonesia.

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Your just making stuff up buddy!

Unless you can provide a reliable link!

I believe unions are actually illegal in Japan!

But the working standards that the "government" imposes is far greater than any western nation!

The laws regulating the stock market aswell in Japan are far different!

Aswell it is common in Japan for CEO's to commit suicide when their company declares bankruptcy!How many CEO's do you see here doing that!

Man your freekin cherry pickin and making things up!

All Japan is is 150 million people(very hard working,skilled and educated) working a 60hr work week!Take that away and essentialy you have Indonesia.

WWWTT

Go read the wealth of nations, its a bit dry and written in old english, but have at it.

Japan wishes it was indonesia,indonesia is one of the leading asian economies in terms of gdp growth. Hell japans govt intervention has killed its gdp growth to the benefit of its neighbours, thank you for that example!

[Shwa]

Is collecting deductions off of paychecks and forcing all workers at said workplace to join part of freedom to associate? Nope, that's a govt power granted to unions.

What workplace forces "all workers" to pay union dues?

The model works because there is a labor market. For example when I have hired help I have to pay wages in the same ballpark as a grunt gets on the oil rigs or the potash mine because if I don't that's where the worker goes! Same goes in the1920s and 1950s, everybody was employed and were thus able to obtain higher wages by manipulating a labor shortage to their advantage. The market at work

"Everybody" was employed in the 1950's were they? Not quite "everybody" and not quite as many women.

And let's not forget that the panacea of the 1950's came complete with government regulation, social programs, etc. IOW, the regulated market at work.