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Conservatives set to table bill.........


Guest Derek L

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No, some people need to stop feeling like perpetual victims. Air Canada isn't a good target. A bankrupt airline that pays well will do far less for the employees than a solvent airline that pays less. Even CUPE recommended to their members that they take the deal in this case. There are bad times to strike, and this is one.

And yet the deal they got after they voted to strike was better than the one they turned down.

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Guest Derek L

All part of the conservative dream world where everyone gets paid the lowest wage possible and we live in straw shacks and mud huts. Except for the top 1-5% of course.

You’re wrong…….Conservative dream world has everyone living in six bedroom homes……..driving big expensive cars…..owning a boat…….paying their taxes…….and getting little to nothing from the government…………It’s the leftist mentality that looks at the economy as a zero sum game……….Order more pizza instead of cutting the slices smaller…….

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And if they can't come to an agreement who do you asign the blame?
Why do we care as long as the fines are structured in a way to be equally painful to both sides?

Strikes/lockouts are nothing but a game of chicken where each side is gambling that the other side will give in first. All I am suggesting is that we change it to a game of chicken based on government fines. That way the general public is no longer asked to pay because unions and companies can't agree.

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Guest Derek L

You're not kidding, are you? :huh:

Nope.........if it wasn't the case, Corporations wouldn’t have legions of lawyers and accountants……If there was no deterrence, why bother with the extra overhead

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You’re wrong…….Conservative dream world has everyone living in six bedroom homes……..driving big expensive cars…..owning a boat…….paying their taxes…….and getting little to nothing from the government…………It’s the leftist mentality that looks at the economy as a zero sum game……….Order more pizza instead of cutting the slices smaller…….

No you are wrong. In a Conservatives dream they don't care if EVERYONE gets that stuff just if they do. Which is fine but it is a VERY LARGE difference between everyone and just me. You are being disingenuous when you say everyone.

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I have been in a union in a flying related industry for many years, one thing you should ask yourself about air canada is how does an airline that is perpetually losing money manage to stay open? Perhaps we don't here all the details eh..

As for unions in general they are something of a necessary evil, to a point, at this time unions aren't really all that strong simply because for quite some time now unionized workers have been doing well, well enough that really fighting for each other isn't worth it. Aside from many of us being fat dumb and happy, you have to consider the propaganda war waged by some, and that becaomes more effective during tougher economic times. At the same time though your own union can be your worse enemy, by treating everyone as equal, by promoting hiring minorities or women, at the expense of competency. By not coming through on contract negotiations with cost of living matching wage increases, and providing toothless support when faced with vindictive management etc. You are often left wondering if the money you spend every month is worth it.

At the end of the day tho, it really is all you have, unions are the reason why many of us can make a decent living, and while they are less relevant now would any of us want to abolish unions and face the inevitable downward spiral of wages, until enough of us decided to get together and demand more..I don't think we need to live that scenario to know the end result.

Do you think that all of these companies outsourced to China beacuse they felt bad for the Chinese? How about using every blip in the market or every hurricane, every volcano, every earthquake etc as an excuse to offer nothing, when their own books show they are making money? If we allow corporations to pay thrid world wages they will do just that, weather it is here, or over seas, while I often dislike my union, I think it is a lesser evil.

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You’re wrong…….Conservative dream world has everyone living in six bedroom homes……..driving big expensive cars…..owning a boat…….1 paying their taxes…….and 2 getting little to nothing from the government…………3 It’s the leftist mentality that looks at the economy as a zero sum game……….Order more pizza instead of cutting the slices smaller…….

1. Find a tax evader, he's likely a conservative supporter.

2. The wealthy disproportionately benefit from infrastructure and public services.

3. The conservative mentality would convince you to cut the pizza slices smaller so they can afford to get a whole pizza themselves. It's why many unions don't agree to concessions easily, because right after they do, the CEO gets huge bonuses in their face.

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Guest Derek L

No you are wrong. In a Conservatives dream they don't care if EVERYONE gets that stuff just if they do. Which is fine but it is a VERY LARGE difference between everyone and just me. You are being disingenuous when you say everyone.

You’re telling me how I dream? That’s rich…….You don’t think Conservatives would like it if everyone was purchasing consumer goods.... :rolleyes:

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Getting nothing from the government. Oh man. This just gets more and more surreal the longer the thread goes. Do the investors and owners of capital not benefit from the fire departments that keep their capital from burning to the ground? Do they not benefit from the police that arrest those that try to rob them? Do they not benefit from the roads that allow them to move their goods and deliver their services? Do they not benefit from the utilities that are delivered to them? Do they not benefit from the street lights that are in their neighbourhoods? Do they not benefit from the education people have here? Do they not benefit from the healthcare system? All of these things were paid for by everyone to the benefit of those that own the most capital. Get nothing from the government. Christ... they get EVERYTHING from the government and the government is funded by the people. The government raises money like it's Socialist, but funds the interests of those that own most of the capital.

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Guest Derek L

1. Find a tax evader, he's likely a conservative supporter.

Have any evidence? Or is this just a hunch?

2. The wealthy disproportionately benefit from infrastructure and public services.

How so? I drive on the same roads, go to the same hospitals if needed and pay the same tax on a loaf of bread

3. The conservative mentality would convince you to cut the pizza slices smaller so they can afford to get a whole pizza themselves. It's why many unions don't agree to concessions easily, because right after they do, the CEO gets huge bonuses in their face.

You’re telling me what my own mentality is? Again, that’s rich……….You don’t seem to understand, the more people purchasing, paying more taxes to revenue Canada, buying more homes etc, is good for the bottom line………Having people that can’t afford the latest Iphone, Buick and pair of Nike’s isn’t what we want……

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You’re telling me how I dream? That’s rich…….You don’t think Conservatives would like it if everyone was purchasing consumer goods.... :rolleyes:

They would like it; however, corporate rationality prevents them from putting more money into the hands of the consumers.

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Guest Derek L

They would like it; however, corporate rationality prevents them from putting more money into the hands of the consumers.

Corporations don’t set the tax rates.........Go to a Walmart/Costco/Super Store etc and there’s all sorts of cheap crap you can buy………Volume =Profit

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Guest Derek L

So none then.....

Go further up the chain…….there is tax on everything & nothing when it comes to consumer goods……..Every hear the expression, Corporations really don’t pay taxes? Fore any increase on cost is passed on to consumers

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Why do we care as long as the fines are structured in a way to be equally painful to both sides?

Strikes/lockouts are nothing but a game of chicken where each side is gambling that the other side will give in first. All I am suggesting is that we change it to a game of chicken based on government fines. That way the general public is no longer asked to pay because unions and companies can't agree.

How do you measure that? A big part of the equation for both parties is the possible loss of future business because of a strike. This will impact both sides regardless of the agreement finally reached. A strike threat is not just a game of chicken, it puts pressure on both sides to reach and agreement because a strike will have a long term negative impact on both the company and its employees. Even if a union votes overwhelmingly to go on strike, few of its members actually want it to happen. By making it a matter of just fines, you reduce it to a matter of the side with the deepest pockets wins. The richest party just digs in its heels until the other side goes bust.

Strike threats are a part of the process. Airline employees have shown time and again in crisis after crisis that they understand the impact their actions can have on a company's survival. Much more so than upper management when it comes to their personal renumeration.

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A strike threat is not just a game of chicken, it puts pressure on both sides to reach and agreement because a strike will have a long term negative impact on both the company and its employees.
So will fines if they are large enough.
Even if a union votes overwhelmingly to go on strike, few of its members actually want it to happen. By making it a matter of just fines, you reduce it to a matter of the side with the deepest pockets wins. The richest party just digs in its heels until the other side goes bust.
Obviously the fines on the company would have to proportionately larger to extract the same level of pain. That would neutralize the deep pockets problem.

I am trying to find a way to preserve the negotiating power of employees while ending this system where innocent bystanders are made to suffer because of a labour dispute. Which would you prefer - having the government order employees back to work or set up a system that addresses the reasons for the back to work legislation?

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Reasonalbe dialogue is best. Problems can be worked out with good will and mutual co-operation - most people - master and slave understand that they need each other - only a foolish master brings harm to his servants - and only a foolish servant seeks the demise of a good master.

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So will fines if they are large enough.

Obviously the fines on the company would have to proportionately larger to extract the same level of pain. That would neutralize the deep pockets problem.

I am trying to find a way to preserve the negotiating power of employees while ending this system where innocent bystanders are made to suffer because of a labour dispute. Which would you prefer - having the government order employees back to work or set up a system that addresses the reasons for the back to work legislation?

What are you proposing, auditing each party and imposing fines according to the result. You want to impose system that requires nothing more from either party than the ability to pay a fine. Why should the government order them back to work? Are they going to take the company over if it goes broke because of mismanagement?

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Reasonalbe dialogue is best. Problems can be worked out with good will and mutual co-operation - most people - master and slave understand that they need each other - only a foolish master brings harm to his servants - and only a foolish servant seeks the demise of a good master.

Hmm, you see labour relations as a master, slave relationship?

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You want to impose system that requires nothing more from either party than the ability to pay a fine. Why should the government order them back to work? Are they going to take the company over if it goes broke because of mismanagement?
Maybe the fines should come from the pockets of the managers instead?
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Have any evidence? Or is this just a hunch?

Based on hearing grumpy old conservatives talk at dinner. They used illegal (closed) loopholes to pay 0 tax and kept complaining about tax. Fat chance if anyone is going ot get hard numbers on that so I'll have to use my experience and general understanding that rich people are way more likely to be conservative and are way more likely to commit tax fraud. Who really pays taxes?

How so? I drive on the same roads, go to the same hospitals if needed and pay the same tax on a loaf of bread

The stable environment and infrastructure allow the wealthy to carry on and profit from our society.

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Guest Derek L

Based on hearing grumpy old conservatives talk at dinner. They used illegal (closed) loopholes to pay 0 tax and kept complaining about tax. Fat chance if anyone is going ot get hard numbers on that so I'll have to use my experience and general understanding that rich people are way more likely to be conservative and are way more likely to commit tax fraud. Who really pays taxes?

Ahh, a personal antidote………..So you’re stating opinion not fact…….gottcha

The stable environment and infrastructure allow the wealthy to carry on and profit from our society.

Don’t the “poor” also benefit from our tax payer funded hospitals, schools, roads, sewage and water systems?

Is there “rich” only roads? If so, please share their location………Driving down Kingsway Ave in Burnaby/Vancouver is brutal…….41st Ave aint much better

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Guest Derek L

I (retailer) don't pay tax for it....and neither does the bakery. I suppose the equipment was taxed at some point, as was the fuel to distribute it, but the product itself isn't taxed.

Who pays the cost of the tax on the diesel, the lights in the bakery etc?

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