lukin Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) What does it say oh great and wise one? This forum is about politics not about me and what I do to make the world a better place. Why don't you try defending your Conservative Party and or Harper against what I have said earlier? Which earlier generalization did you make that I need to respond to? You have written nothing worthwhile. Oh, and thanks for admitting that you doing nothing to help the poor. You satisfy your guilt by voting for parties that pretend to do things for the poor. You should still feel guilty. Edited September 25, 2011 by lukin Quote
cybercoma Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 It's impossible to have a serious discussion on here when all people want to do is call names. There is a valuable discussion to be had that seeks to balance offender accountability with social interests, like proper medical care for drug addicts, or keeping families together, etc. A system that is completely devoted to one side or the other will cause more harm to society than good. It's not an easy problem, but anyone that fully advocates one side over another is nothing more than an activist, completely unwilling to accept the complexity of the issue of criminal justice. Like I said, there's an opportunity to seriously discuss the balance between accountability and other social interests, but obviously not with the way people are discussing things here. Quote
CitizenX Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 cybercoma You are right of course and I apologize for stooping to a lower level. A system that is completely devoted to one side or the other will cause more harm to society than good. It's not an easy problem, but anyone that fully advocates one side over another is nothing more than an activist, completely unwilling to accept the complexity of the issue of criminal justice I would just like to hear from the Harper side of this issue. I just don't understand how they could defend their party policies. Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
cybercoma Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 While I appreciate the apology, it's not just you and it's not just this thread. Also, you don't need to apologize to me. It just makes it impossible to actually have any sort of rational, intelligent discussion when you have to wade through post after post of people calling each other idiots or some other derivative insult. Most people here are not stupid. I just wish we could all stop the petty nonsense, myself included. Quote
eyeball Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) I think it's too late. What's happening in this forum is starting to manifest in the real world. I'm convinced the left and right are destined for a civil war. The feelings that are hardening along with the worsening economic tone of the times is clinching it for me. Perhaps scrapping the gun registry isn't such a bad idea after all, the idea of having a gun for protection is actually starting to make sense. I mean, if even a few of those lefties that were murdered in Norway had been armed Anders Breivik might have been stopped dead in his tracks. Edited September 25, 2011 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WWWTT Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 I've actually seen studies which peg it much higher, at closer to $100 billion. The costs are the cost of lost, damaged and destroyed property, medical costs of injuries, time off work, and additional costs imposed on consumers and government due to such things as insurance fraud, shoplifting and forgery. university of ottawa Ya I checked out a couple of links and there is a wide difference between surveys which leads me to believe that this cost calculation is open to a liberal interpretation. Aswell it appears that many people are dependant on crime to support their livelyhood! If the crime rate was to drastically drop then there would be many high paid civil servants collecting EI. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
lukin Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 I think it's too late. What's happening in this forum is starting to manifest in the real world. I'm convinced the left and right are destined for a civil war. The feelings that are hardening along with the worsening economic tone of the times is clinching it for me. Perhaps scrapping the gun registry isn't such a bad idea after all, the idea of having a gun for protection is actually starting to make sense. I mean, if even a few of those lefties that were murdered in Norway had been armed Anders Breivik might have been stopped dead in his tracks. Gun control doesn't work. It only penalizes those who now feel it is against the law to protect themselves. If someone broke into my house with a gun, my family and I wouldn't even have a fighting chance. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) Gun control doesn't work. It only penalizes those who now feel it is against the law to protect themselves. If someone broke into my house with a gun, my family and I wouldn't even have a fighting chance. Yet, we rarely, if ever, hear about random families having their homes broken into and being systematically executed by crazed gun-wielding criminals. Do you know what gun-control has done in Canada? It has driven up the black-market value of guns. Criminals can still get their hands on them, but it's not as easy as it is in the United States. A gun that might be a couple hundred bucks on the black-market south of the border would cost someone between $1000-2000 here. So, it's a complete fabrication that there are a bunch of petty criminals running around with firearms waiting to kill innocent people that have nothing to do with them. By the bye, the same effect is why gun-control in the United States won't work. Guns are so cheap and prolific that gun-control laws would take them out of the law-abiding citizens hands, while they're already cheaply had by criminals. It's very difficult to go backwards once you have relaxed gun-control laws, which is all the more reason we should avoid loosening them here. Edited September 25, 2011 by cybercoma Quote
Scotty Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Yaa I know I'm over stating the obvious. in·ane adjective /iˈnān/ Silly; stupid Web definitions asinine: devoid of intelligence wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (inanely) fatuously: vacuously or complacently and unconsciously foolish wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Lacking sense or meaning (often implying, "to the point of boredom or annoyance") en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inane (inanely) In an inane manner en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inanely silly, empty of meaning or value quizlet.com/3953093/nln-vocabulary-flash-cards/ Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Ya I checked out a couple of links and there is a wide difference between surveys which leads me to believe that this cost calculation is open to a liberal interpretation. Only to some extent. The actual cost of damaged, lost and stolen material, the actual cost of medical treatment and lost wages, the money spent on bars for windows, security guards, alarm systems, those are very real. It is the intangibles which are more complicated. However, if you checked out a number of them you should have seen that most say their estimates, whether 50 or 100 billion, are actually conservative, and probably understating the real cost. Aswell it appears that many people are dependant on crime to support their livelyhood!If the crime rate was to drastically drop then there would be many high paid civil servants collecting EI. I would suggest, exempting police, there are likely more people working in the private sector because of crime, starting with all security guards, store detectives, alarm system installers, and all the people who manufacture and sell crime deterrent systems. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 By the bye, the same effect is why gun-control in the United States won't work. Guns are so cheap and prolific that gun-control laws would take them out of the law-abiding citizens hands, while they're already cheaply had by criminals. It's very difficult to go backwards once you have relaxed gun-control laws, which is all the more reason we should avoid loosening them here. The real solution to gun control is fairly simple. It's a life sentence for anyone caught with one. Have an illegal hand gun, point it at anyone, in a robbery or for any other reason, never mind shooting someone, and you go to prison for the rest of your life. Some might think that an overreaction, and in many cases, it would be. On the other hand, I would imagine the effect on the population at large would be fairly noticeable. Not many punks are going to carry one around with a law like that on the books, provided it's strictly enforced. Not many would want to rob a corner store with a hand gun if they knew their punishment would be life in prison. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 The real solution to gun control is fairly simple. It's a life sentence for anyone caught with one. Have an illegal hand gun, point it at anyone, in a robbery or for any other reason, never mind shooting someone, and you go to prison for the rest of your life. Nope...doesn't work for murder and won't work for illegal hand guns. A "life sentence" in Canada isn't exactly what it seems anyway. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Scotty Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) Nope...doesn't work for murder and won't work for illegal hand guns. A "life sentence" in Canada isn't exactly what it seems anyway. It'll work. Most murders in Canada are not premeditated. The presence of guns makes it far easier for some asshat to yank out his 'piece' and shoot someone who's 'dissing' him. Edited September 25, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
cybercoma Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 People don't commit crimes expecting to be caught and there are serious social consequences to locking people up for life and creating "mandatory minimums" that take away judicial discretion. I know many people think that we should adopt a crime and punishment agenda, but there are many that would argue that the Criminal Justice System needs to be more comprehensive in addressing the needs of the victims and the families of offenders. Many of the specialized domestic violence courts are beginning to move in this direction, but there is a lot of work that still needs to be done and I would argue the same thinking should carry into the rest of the CJS. We don't live in a vacuum. Offender accountability is but one piece of a larger puzzle that needs to be considered. Quote
cybercoma Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 It'll work. Most murders in Canada are not premeditated. The presence of guns makes it far easier for some asshat to yank out his 'piece' and shoot someone who's 'dissing' him. Tougher sentencing isn't going to eliminate the presence of guns though. Quote
CitizenX Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) Once again why not go to the root of the problem instead of putting on more bandage on. Marijuana prohibition is the source of a great deal of gang activity and crimes. Get rid of this useless law and you get rid of a large portion of gangs and guns. Not to mention help the economy. Prostitution can be handled in the same way. You control and regulate the trade, and you take the abusive element out of the equation. At the same time you provide access to information, counseling, and a way out for these women. Money well spent. It worked for gambling. The government takes over and the criminal element disappears or at least is minimized. As far as most crimes go, you simply have to look at crime the same as health care. If you look for the source of health problems they usually stem from diet, and exercise. Fix the diet or at least promote a good diet, and exercise, and you prevent disease. As for Crime, crime stems from child abuse. Concentrate on the source, and stop putting bandages on the problem. Edited September 25, 2011 by CitizenX Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
eyeball Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Once again why not go to the root of the problem instead of putting on more bandage on. Marijuana prohibition is the source of a great deal of gang activity and crimes. Get rid of this useless law and you get rid of a large portion of gangs and guns. Not to mention help the economy. Yeah but how would the Conservatives ever win another election? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Yeah but how would the Conservatives ever win another election? How did they win the last one...I guess die hard dopers don't bother to vote? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
lukin Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Once again why not go to the root of the problem instead of putting on more bandage on. Marijuana prohibition is the source of a great deal of gang activity and crimes. So organized crime will become less prominent if they can't peddle pot dope? Really? Quote
CitizenX Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) So organized crime will become less prominent if they can't peddle pot dope? Really? Yes really, it's huge source of money. You simply have to look at the American prohibition period. Edited September 25, 2011 by CitizenX Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Yes really, it's huge source of money. You simply have to look at the American prohibition period. Yea...I guess no money was similarly made during the Canadian "prohibition period". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wilber Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) And oh by the way, while they're in jail, shouldn't they be able to get help with addiction problem? Oh wait, they can! Corrections Canada Substance Abuse Programs Except the only addicts who see a federal prison are ones convicted of major crimes. Anyone sentenced to less than two years goes to the provincial prison system. This is the reason judges hand down so many "two years less a day" sentences. Edited to include an interesting observation on our system. Get a longer sentence, get out earlier Edited September 25, 2011 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
lukin Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 Yes really, it's huge source of money. You simply have to look at the American prohibition period. I know it's a huge source of cash. How will organized crime react when the government takes over their business. Will OC groups just be willing to accept the pay cut? Or will something more evil result? Quote
CitizenX Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 I know it's a huge source of cash. How will organized crime react when the government takes over their business. Will OC groups just be willing to accept the pay cut? Or will something more evil result? I suppose the same way organized crime reacted when the government took over gambling, and alcohol in the states. They will disappear from these areas. This is not Mexico where the gangs out number the police, and the police are corrupt. Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
lukin Posted September 25, 2011 Report Posted September 25, 2011 I suppose the same way organized crime reacted when the government took over gambling, and alcohol in the states. They will disappear from these areas. This is not Mexico where the gangs out number the police, and the police are corrupt. I think if that were the case, OC would become even more dangerous and ruthless....if that is possible. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.