on education

[Zachary Young]

The Idiot Society

As a child I thought there was something wrong with me, that I was so different from everyone else. Naturally I did not fit in. I did not fit in at school. I hated school. It was a truly dreadful place. The other children were mean to me. The teachers treated me with contempt. And perhaps I deserved some of the criticism and scorn that was directed to me. I was a whiny, petulant brat. Precocious, perhaps, but unbearably so. But over the years I have come to realize the reason I am apart is because everyone I know is an idiot. I live in an idiot society. A world populated by idiots. Or perhaps it is not everyone who is an idiot, but only the most vocal, the most self obsesed, the people we see constantly. Those who self aggrandize, those who live by public opinoion alone. It is difficult to say. For a long time I believed passionately in the greatness of my fellow citizens, but I must report that I believe this way no longer.

I believe we, as a people, Canadians, Ontarians, Londonians, we have been conditioned for dullness and obedience. The root of our problem is our school system which is thoroughly dysfunctional. My mother, something of a non comformist herself, shuttled us around the province, moving from city to city. I attended a great number of institutions of public education, both primary and secondary, and had the opportunity to meet a great number of children and teachers. The heart of the problem with our education system seems to this observer to be rooted in the fact that it is mired in government monopoly. We have a monolithic centralized education system, where directions come down from the ministry and hapless (and none too bright) teachers attempt to fit every round peg in their classroom into the square hole of ministry mandated standards. Part of the problem is the coercive nature of the system. It is funded by coercive taxation and every child under the age of 16 must attend. While it is true that children can attend private schools - which also must follow state mandates as to the content of the curriculum - very few parents can afford first to pay the taxes which fund public schools and second to pay the cost of a private school education.

The unleashing of the creative potential of our youth is a great task for society. There is so much ability in every individual, but it is nearly impossible for that greatness to be developed absent sufficient challenge and motivation. Instead of teaching children how to soar like eagles, we teach them how to be obedient and docile in the face of authority. Children must beg for permission to urinate, they must sit quitely for hours on end and they must at all times obey every little instruction from the authority figure (teacher, principal, cop, judge, what have you). This sort of system may be effective in creating soldier or worker drones but as far as teaching individuals how to accomplish impossible feats of dering do, or even to have healthy and productive relationships it is quite useless.

The idea that every student must be taught the same amount of each subject is absurd. As we get to high school some specialization emerges, but it is quite limited, as is the nature of a centralized structure. What we really need is a market in education, completely naked of government regulation or interference. The advantages would be legion. Not only would we have market competition driving prices down and quality up, schools would have real incentives to innovate. We could have schools that specialize in the trades, schools that specialize in the arts, schools that specialize in the social sciences. And we could have competition in teaching methods, radical new techniques could be tried and they would be evaluated by the market place. Schools that do the best would be rewarded by profits and schools that failed our students would suffer losses and eventually go out of business.

[William Ashley]

I attended a great number of institutions of public education, both primary and secondary, and had the opportunity to meet a great number of children and teachers. The heart of the problem with our education system seems to this observer to be rooted in the fact that it is mired in government monopoly.

It comes at a cost. There are lots of people out there willing to tutor people. You don't need to go to high school, and home schooling is an option also. People can take the GED equivalency for their secondary education also. There are many alternative education options out there, but vary on your locality. There are even new programs finding their way into Ontario such as Montessori based learning programs.

We have a monolithic centralized education system, where directions come down from the ministry and hapless (and none too bright) teachers attempt to fit every round peg in their classroom..

the boards often make up the rules for their own schools. They are given the "minimun" requirements, but they have wiggle room. Most of the stuff like knowing english, math, and basic science, a little french, and knowing a bit about health and fitness, don't seem like bad goals.

second to pay the cost of a private school education.

Its really not that much, when compared to say college or university.

The idea that every student must be taught the same amount of each subject is absurd.

Well teachers have something to aim for. Students don't have to learn, also many high schools have ISUs that allow the freedom of self study. The amount of learning in the classroom at the secondary or elementary levels are very minimal, as compared to the post secondary level.

Education has taken a long time to evolve to its current state. There are many many options out there. There is the standard, but there are options for individuals who don't want to conform to the mainstream public system. It is not forced on people.

as is the nature of a centralized structure. What we really need is a market in education, completely naked of government regulation or interference.

There is a market in education, the vast majority choose the public system. I need to restate though there are many options for education, and home schooling is an option. The requirements for GED and homeschooling are very minimal.

I should state I moved a lot as a kid also, every year or two right up until grade 7, which I continued into 8 different schools/programs before I graduated from high school (even though I live in the same place between grade 6 and graduation). I think I'm definitely someone who has enjoyed school though more or less. I've always had a positive outlook on things. Still now in post secondary studies I still enjoy learning.

There are even self study options as the post secondary level. Independent Studies programs, masters programs, and doctorates that allow a lot of independent study.

So I really don't agree with your position, I think it is a false dichotomy due to not knowing what the options really are. I think though it is after the fact.

What is really the point is that there is not enough education about alternative learning methods for parents. There are people who home school or put their kids in alternative programs (Even within my own relatives)

Fact is the grass isn't always greener, and it works for most.

The key to education is keeping task focused, and good sleep habits, proper nutrition and health and avoiding screwing around, just get it done, that's all there is to it.

http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/

http://www.ehow.com/video_4950097_i-homeschool-ontario-canada.html

http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/highschool.html

Unfortunate to a certain extent a lot of kids don't have parents, or parents who care, or know how, to reinforce the values they need to be successful and involved in their education while being successful and happy in academic pursuits.

Heh, its better than nothing though eh, back to the day of paper boys and chimney sweeps. IT seems positively progressive over the long haul, what would you seek to improve or change?

Edited September 17, 2011 by William Ashley

[Bonam]

The OP sounds like it was plagiarized from somewhere else. Nonetheless, my thoughts:

As a child I thought there was something wrong with me, that I was so different from everyone else. Naturally I did not fit in. I did not fit in at school. I hated school. It was a truly dreadful place. The other children were mean to me. The teachers treated me with contempt. And perhaps I deserved some of the criticism and scorn that was directed to me.

I had the same experience in school.

For a long time I believed passionately in the greatness of my fellow citizens, but I must report that I believe this way no longer.

Ha

Part of the problem is the coercive nature of the system. It is funded by coercive taxation and every child under the age of 16 must attend. While it is true that children can attend private schools - which also must follow state mandates as to the content of the curriculum - very few parents can afford first to pay the taxes which fund public schools and second to pay the cost of a private school education.

Agreed. Parents who send their kids to a private school should get a tax credit, since they are reducing the burden on the public system.

The unleashing of the creative potential of our youth is a great task for society. There is so much ability in every individual, but it is nearly impossible for that greatness to be developed absent sufficient challenge and motivation. Instead of teaching children how to soar like eagles, we teach them how to be obedient and docile in the face of authority. Children must beg for permission to urinate, they must sit quitely for hours on end and they must at all times obey every little instruction from the authority figure (teacher, principal, cop, judge, what have you). This sort of system may be effective in creating soldier or worker drones but as far as teaching individuals how to accomplish impossible feats of dering do, or even to have healthy and productive relationships it is quite useless.

I agree the silent classroom format where each student is expected to soak up "knowledge" that the teacher espouses is inadequate. That being said, many schools are moving away from that and experimenting with varying formats, where students work in groups, or have debates, or work on their own and the teacher is there to answer questions, etc. I do think there is some improvement going on here.

The idea that every student must be taught the same amount of each subject is absurd. As we get to high school some specialization emerges, but it is quite limited, as is the nature of a centralized structure.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. For one, universities also have a "centralized structure" and yet people can specialize into whatever tiny field they want. Secondly, for most people, discovering where their strengths and talents are takes a long time. Few people know in grade 8 what exactly they want to be for the rest of their lives. Giving them exposure to the full range of subjects makes sense. Having people pigeonholed too early into specific paths would leave a lot of people even more dissatisfied in life than they already are.

What we really need is a market in education, completely naked of government regulation or interference. The advantages would be legion. Not only would we have market competition driving prices down and quality up, schools would have real incentives to innovate. We could have schools that specialize in the trades, schools that specialize in the arts, schools that specialize in the social sciences. And we could have competition in teaching methods, radical new techniques could be tried and they would be evaluated by the market place. Schools that do the best would be rewarded by profits and schools that failed our students would suffer losses and eventually go out of business.

I disagree. While I utterly abhor leftist notions of equality of outcome or wealth redistribution, I do believe that people deserve to start their life with something approaching equality of opportunity. By having only private schools, children of poorer parents would be guaranteed a poorer education. Providing a public school system that is sufficient in quality to start individuals on a solid path is crucial, otherwise all the people who have huge potential but were born to poor parents would fall through the cracks. Now, I agree, our current public school system often falls far far short of this ideal. Many changes and reforms need to happen. Not least of which would be paying and promoting teachers based on merit (teaching success and ability) rather than seniority and union rules. But, eliminating public education would be a fundamental mistake in my opinion.

[Smallc]

Agreed. Parents who send their kids to a private school should get a tax credit, since they are reducing the burden on the public system.

Why? That's their choice, and the participants in the public system shouldn't suffer because someone made a choice. Canadian public education, as a whole, does very well when scored internationally.

[Squeakbox]

Long text is long...

All I have to say is this: public school is a crap-shoot, because you get stupid teachers, and I mean that in the true sense of the word.

Of course, almost all of us has had some experience or another.

I remember having a problem with my eyes one day in class, like a dryness - an ache. So, to deal with it, I had to close my eyes and roll them up to "stretch" them. My eyes were sore, but I couldn't go do anything about it until after class.

Later I get called to the guidance counselor's office - apparently a guy sitting next to me told the counselor that I was "batting my eyelashes" at him, flirting with him (I was constantly bullied in school). Now, INSTEAD of telling the guy not to be paranoid, that it was probably something in my eye, the counselor started at me about not getting "kinky" with the boys in class.

I was like "wtf?" and explained that my eyes have been bothering me all day. During then, I stretched my eyes during the interview because they were still dry (rubbing them didn't always help). So THEN the counselor goes "Oh! Don't you start flirting with me!".

It was so absurd! Not just that, but the counselor was a woman, and she thought I was turning bisexual after that. If you want my opinion - teachers in highschool are mentally retarded.

[William Ashley]

Agreed. Parents who send their kids to a private school should get a tax credit, since they are reducing the burden on the public system.

False. The Ministry gives equal funding to both private and public schooling, it is based on a levy per student. Both get the same funding per student.

I don't get why Americans are posting in a Canadian Federal politics thread when they don't even know how the system works, and they are talking as if they know the deal, it is absolute nonsense.

Edited September 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[Zachary Young]

When I was still in high school the Tory government at the time - in it's dying days - proposed a very modest tax credit for parents who send their children to private or religious schools. I remember at the time I was rabidly opposed to such a tax credit. I wrote a letter to the editor and even protested at public hearings the Tories were having on the suggestion. I was terrified this would destroy the public school system or some such nonsense. It's funny what difference a few years can make in terms of perspective. Today I think a tax credit for parents who send their children to private schools is a great idea - the higher the better. Actually I am in favour of any tax credit, for any person, for any reason. Anything we can do to help anyone at all escape the onerous tax burden, imposed by liberals and conservatives alike with reckless (often politically motivated) spending, should be done.

[William Ashley]

The private boards are the ones who set the extra fees, it is their option, it is not forced by the government, they get the same per student funding as public schools.

NOTE THIS IS A PROVINCIAL ISSUE NOT FEDERAL

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/privsch/

Ontario

School boards funded by the province consist of 29 English Catholic and 8 French Catholic boards, as well as 35 non-denominational public school boards (31 English public, 4 French public). There is one Protestant separate school jurisdiction in Ontario, the Burkevale Protestant Separate School, operated by the Penetanguishene Protestant Separate School Board. In Ontario, this determination was largely made throughout the province by the time of Confederation.

The public school system in the province was historically Protestant but was gradually transformed into a secular public system. Prayer in public schools was discontinued in the early 1980s.

Since the 19th century, funding for the Roman Catholic separate school system was provided up to Grade 10 under the British North America (BNA) Act. In 1984 the government of Premier William Davis extended full funding to include the last three (Grades 11–13 (OAC)) years of Roman Catholic secondary schools after having rejected that proposal fifteen years earlier. The first funded academic year occurred in 1985–86, as grade 11, and one grade was added in each of the next two years.

The right to have a publicly-funded separate denominational school system continues to be guaranteed by Section 93 of the 1982 Constitution Act to Roman Catholics in Ontario.[7]

http://www.ourkids.net/school/article.php?id=8

50% off $20 registration, is $20 for education really breaking the bank?

http://www.ourkids.net/expo/register.php

Our Kids gives financing suggestions:

http://www.ourkids.net/expo/seminars-and-speakers.php

Financial Advice: How to pay for private school

A seminar you cannot afford to miss! Join our panel of experts as they unravel the mysteries of educational financing and paying for private school. Learn how to work education costs into your budget while gathering details about incentives such as scholarships, bursaries and financial aid.

The bottom line here is, that people from all types of backgrounds have done these things.

The bottom line here is, there are options.

http://www.ourkids.net/toronto-private-schools.php

The rates may seem like a lot in some cases and it is.

Some of these rates are hoewver boarding options too.

(I do support tax credits for private school equal to the per student rate)

http://www.experienceboarding.ca/school-profile.php?id=39

The cost to Ontario tax payers is about $7700 / year per student. So depending on the school most or all of the costs fall within the range of the public board fees (however some are 2x or 3x that cost. (however in some cases these are boarding schools)

This may be a $3000-$5000 markup in some cases for a very low student teacher threshold and in Bronte's case a 98% university placement rate. This compared with a "staggering although may be off a bit 20% dropout rate for Canada"

Private schools are either business or not for profit, they set their rates.

It is a value added service. People arn't being denied an education except for students who are forced to leave school.

Even expelled students have options: www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/safeschools/NeedtoKnowExp.pdf

Education is expensive even if you arn't paying for it yourself.

Foreign students are paying well over $10,000 up here for tuition alone. (where scholarships don't apply) While costs are still low compared to the US not everyone is privileged to have a free education of their choosing there are controls on both sides of the table.

It really has nothing to do with the government. Just be happy they are paying your way if you have a free education.

While I think there are ample program options to roll out to enhance a 0 cost education to the student at that time, there really needs to be a social contract between the student and the person paying their way through school, so that it is mutually fair, not just a one way street.

I think that is the focus that should be taken, programs that attend to this issue but if not line of credit or student loans for post secondary, why can't you expect the same for secondary or elementary for those seeking a program of their choice rather than the public system?

(Personally I am very thankful the government pays for all my costs of living and education) - It will be interesting if they will pay for more than one term per year... if the liberals win ontario and introduce the new 30% tuition reduction scheme. None the less I have no complaints with how it works.

Even if they pay, you still need to get in to their limited class allotment programs.

The more people "able to go" the less people get in.

Hell there are "low cost" private schools outside of Canada if you really want to go.

Edited September 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[MiddleClassCentrist]

All I have to say is this: public school is a crap-shoot, because you get stupid teachers, and I mean that in the true sense of the word.

False.

Private schools get the left overs and lazy teachers... The ones who couldn't get a job in the public system. It is more challenging to be a public school teacher than a private school teacher. Try to get 30 students who may or may not have engaged parents work and do home work? Or instantly get 16 kids doing every subject because their parents would come down hard on them for wasting $10+/year?

There are some stupid teachers. There are some stupid lawyers. There are some stupid engineers. There are some stupid of anything... Most teachers are intelligent and professional in their workplace.

[William Ashley]

The private boards are the ones who set the extra fees, it is their option, it is not forced by the government, they get the same per student funding as public schools.

NOTE THIS IS A PROVINCIAL ISSUE NOT FEDERAL

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/privsch/

http://www.ourkids.net/school/article.php?id=8

50% off $20 registration, is $20 for education really breaking the bank?

http://www.ourkids.net/expo/register.php

Our Kids gives financing suggestions:

http://www.ourkids.net/expo/seminars-and-speakers.php

Financial Advice: How to pay for private school

A seminar you cannot afford to miss! Join our panel of experts as they unravel the mysteries of educational financing and paying for private school. Learn how to work education costs into your budget while gathering details about incentives such as scholarships, bursaries and financial aid.

The bottom line here is, that people from all types of backgrounds have done these things.

The bottom line here is, there are options.

http://www.ourkids.net/toronto-private-schools.php

The rates may seem like a lot in some cases and it is.

Some of these rates are hoewver boarding options too.

(I do support tax credits for private school equal to the per student rate)

http://www.experienceboarding.ca/school-profile.php?id=39

The cost to Ontario tax payers is about $7700 / year per student. So depending on the school most or all of the costs fall within the range of the public board fees (however some are 2x or 3x that cost. (however in some cases these are boarding schools)

This may be a $3000-$5000 markup in some cases for a very low student teacher threshold and in Bronte's case a 98% university placement rate. This compared with a "staggering although may be off a bit 20% dropout rate for Canada"

Private schools are either business or not for profit, they set their rates.

It is a value added service. People arn't being denied an education except for students who are forced to leave school.

Even expelled students have options: www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/safeschools/NeedtoKnowExp.pdf

Education is expensive even if you arn't paying for it yourself.

Foreign students are paying well over $10,000 up here for tuition alone. (where scholarships don't apply) While costs are still low compared to the US not everyone is privileged to have a free education of their choosing there are controls on both sides of the table.

It really has nothing to do with the government. Just be happy they are paying your way if you have a free education.

While I think there are ample program options to roll out to enhance a 0 cost education to the student at that time, there really needs to be a social contract between the student and the person paying their way through school, so that it is mutually fair, not just a one way street.

I think that is the focus that should be taken, programs that attend to this issue but if not line of credit or student loans for post secondary, why can't you expect the same for secondary or elementary for those seeking a program of their choice rather than the public system?

(Personally I am very thankful the government pays for all my costs of living and education) - It will be interesting if they will pay for more than one term per year... if the liberals win ontario and introduce the new 30% tuition reduction scheme. None the less I have no complaints with how it works.

Even if they pay, you still need to get in to their limited class allotment programs.

The more people "able to go" the less people get in.

Hell there are "low cost" private schools outside of Canada if you really want to go.

Take the Kamuzu Academy for example in Malawi.

http://www.kamuzuacademy.com/general_information.htm

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=malawi&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Edited September 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[Zachary Young]

You really had to quote your entire post to add one line?

Really?

I mean, I love the sound of my voice and all, but still I try to take it a little easy.

[Bonam]

False.

Private schools get the left overs and lazy teachers... The ones who couldn't get a job in the public system. It is more challenging to be a public school teacher than a private school teacher. Try to get 30 students who may or may not have engaged parents work and do home work? Or instantly get 16 kids doing every subject because their parents would come down hard on them for wasting $10+/year?

Umm, "more challenging" doesn't mean the best teachers will do it. Teachers that are good enough to have a choice of jobs will pick the job that is more enjoyable, or higher paying. Teaching a small class of highly engaged students sounds a heck of a lot more enjoyable to me. Plus you likely get paid more at most private schools. No brainer.

There are some stupid teachers. There are some stupid lawyers. There are some stupid engineers. There are some stupid of anything... Most teachers are intelligent and professional in their workplace.

Err... this generalization is based on what, exactly? Have you gone out and measured the professionality and intelligence of most teachers? No?

[William Ashley]

You really had to quote your entire post to add one line?

Really?

I mean, I love the sound of my voice and all, but still I try to take it a little easy.

Yes I did apparently.

Post .wav or .mp3 etc.. files if you are going for the sound of your voice. This is a text based medium.

I'm actually contemplating this myself, as I have a new mic provided from an educational grant. No more cts fears, just uploading to youtube etc.. all my posts and a link to a video on youtube.

Of course I do have more direct applications intended.

Edited September 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[Bonam]

Why? That's their choice, and the participants in the public system shouldn't suffer because someone made a choice. Canadian public education, as a whole, does very well when scored internationally.

How would the participants in the public system suffer? If the system costs, say, (random number) $10,000 per student per year, and one less student goes to it, and the government gives the system $10,000 less per year, well, the system still has exactly the same funding per student. And the parents of that student have the $10,000 to spend on private education instead.

[William Ashley]

How would the participants in the public system suffer? If the system costs, say, (random number) $10,000 per student per year, and one less student goes to it, and the government gives the system $10,000 less per year, well, the system still has exactly the same funding per student. And the parents of that student have the $10,000 to spend on private education instead.

$10,000 they wouldn't need to pay?

I agree though an equal tax dollar basis is really the only fair way to do it.

However in the case of shell schools you could basically get $10,000 for "home schooling" your kid or putting them into a "learning cooperative". Where all that money is profit rather than education related spending. IN this way the quality of education per tax dollar may be less and it would thus effect the overall economy potentially.

In the event that person x didn't even pay 10000 in taxes it means they get money from the system they didn't put in taking money away from those who did put into the system.

Edited September 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[Squeakbox]

False.

Private schools get the left overs and lazy teachers... The ones who couldn't get a job in the public system. It is more challenging to be a public school teacher than a private school teacher. Try to get 30 students who may or may not have engaged parents work and do home work? Or instantly get 16 kids doing every subject because their parents would come down hard on them for wasting $10+/year?

There are some stupid teachers. There are some stupid lawyers. There are some stupid engineers. There are some stupid of anything... Most teachers are intelligent and professional in their workplace.

You said "false", but your comment afterwards only backed-up my point I was getting across.

I think you meant "true" because you only expanded on what my statement described in a nutshell. But thank you for elaborating.

I never said ALL teachers were stupid - you're misreading into it a bit too far. If anything I have had wonderful teachers, and I stuck with the school system until I pulled through.

I had stupid teachers, so you can't say there isn't stupid people out there. They screwed up most of my years though, putting me into special ed, and telling me I would lose marks if I did my homework telling me I had to do it in that classroom where the special ed teachers were always over your shoulder every 2 minutes while you tried to work!

I'm proving them wrong now, I'm going to college. One of the teachers I went to school with who thought I was a failure in math (I love the crap out of math) fell on her arse when she heard I was going into computers.

But I think what you're NOT getting is the teachers that I've come across. Most of the teachers in the public school systems are wonderful - it's part of the staff that's flawed.

I overheard a teacher talk to a student who had trouble with math, and INSTEAD of telling the student he needed some help and show him his mistakes, she says "Oh, you're not good at math, you'll never be good at math.".

But that just points out the fact that there is always stupid people...

Edited September 18, 2011 by Squeakbox

[Smallc]

How would the participants in the public system suffer? If the system costs, say, (random number) $10,000 per student per year, and one less student goes to it, and the government gives the system $10,000 less per year, well, the system still has exactly the same funding per student. And the parents of that student have the $10,000 to spend on private education instead.

Because there are certain economies of scale involved. It isn't as simple as a 1 for 1 exchange going on.

[Bonam]

Because there are certain economies of scale involved. It isn't as simple as a 1 for 1 exchange going on.

You're right, that's true. Lets say the incremental cost of adding one more student was actually only $7,000, not the full $10,000, due to economies of scale. The parents can get that tax credit instead. Determining the incremental cost of adding one more student and sizing the tax credit based on that shouldn't be too difficult, and would be fair.

[Zachary Young]

The whole point is for the government to have a monopoly on education. Statists will never give that up. The idea of people opting out is completely alien to them. They don't care what people want. They care what they want, and wish to dictate to the rest of society how things should be.

Control freaks.

[Smallc]

You're right, that's true. Lets say the incremental cost of adding one more student was actually only $7,000, not the full $10,000, due to economies of scale. The parents can get that tax credit instead. Determining the incremental cost of adding one more student and sizing the tax credit based on that shouldn't be too difficult, and would be fair.

Well that I would definitely agree with.

[Squeakbox]

You're right, that's true. Lets say the incremental cost of adding one more student was actually only $7,000, not the full $10,000, due to economies of scale. The parents can get that tax credit instead. Determining the incremental cost of adding one more student and sizing the tax credit based on that shouldn't be too difficult, and would be fair.

More money would be nice.... when Harper decides to donate to a CHARITY and not his glorified american-ish views on the military, fake lakes, and glorified fighter jets so we look all powerful! (Yeah, let's invite the terrorists because we got fighter jets - great idea Harper! Get out the champagne!)

The government needs to drop the extra cash that's NOT going to necessities into a donation fund for REAL issues for people who actually need it in this country, not a hot ride.

[Zachary Young]

The Arabs don't care if we have fighter jets - although this is a HUGE waste of taxpayer money, we have no enemies (although Harper is working to change that, no one is going to attack us, we don't need to spend 15-50 billion of taxpayer money on aicraft. The Arabs don't care if we have jets - they do care if we use those jets to drop bombs on their children. A crucial distinction.

[Squeakbox]

The Arabs don't care if we have fighter jets - although this is a HUGE waste of taxpayer money, we have no enemies (although Harper is working to change that, no one is going to attack us, we don't need to spend 15-50 billion of taxpayer money on aicraft. The Arabs don't care if we have jets - they do care if we use those jets to drop bombs on their children. A crucial distinction.

But that's what the terrorists will go after - they have paranoid views. They'll see the fighter jets, and that's all it takes. Next thing you know it's "The Canadians are no better than the Americans! GET THEM!" - if you understand their irrational logic, you can at least get that the terrorists are not known to sit back and wait until we actually "use" the jets.

And I'm talking about TERRORISTS, not generalizing Arabs.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Umm, "more challenging" doesn't mean the best teachers will do it. Teachers that are good enough to have a choice of jobs will pick the job that is more enjoyable, or higher paying. Teaching a small class of highly engaged students sounds a heck of a lot more enjoyable to me. Plus you likely get paid more at most private schools. No brainer.

The average private school pays their school head ridiculous amounts but, teachers often make piddly squat 30k/year, 35k/year starting as opposed to 45k/year in public. Private schools are "political love havens" of conservatives, conservatives hate teachers... more pay at the regular private school? lol.

The only private schools that pay teachers more are the private schools for elite or international students. $20k/year or more tuition. The majority have no pension plan, and fewer benefits because as a provincial group, teachers have huge buying power and get better deals.

So they get less pay and fewer benefits but, their job is easier.

Err... this generalization is based on what, exactly? Have you gone out and measured the professionality and intelligence of most teachers? No?

Yeah, like you work with no lazy people. Just tired of the garbage "I'm conservative and only teachers are stupid because their jobs are too easy *foaming at mouth* argle bargle bargle bargle FREE MARKET argle bargle bargle" ...

Ironically, the average teacher lives longer than the average person because they are more likely to follow health recomendations like quitting smoking... So in evolutionary terms...

Edited September 18, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Guest American Woman]

I don't get why Americans are posting in a Canadian Federal politics thread when they don't even know how the system works, and they are talking as if they know the deal, it is absolute nonsense.

What Americans?? There wasn't so much as one post from an American in the thread - until now.