Gap between rich and poor rising faster in Canada

[dre]

Do you also love how the OP lacks even the most rudimentary concept of what a fascist is?

I missed the part about fascists in the OP. But fascist is the most misused word of all time, and Iv yet to see it accurately used a single time in 5 years of posting here, so it wouldnt suprise me a bit.

[cybercoma]

In other words... Even if a person believes that they have no ethical responsibility to help maintain a baseline standard of living for the poor, they should still feel compelled to do so for their own personal selfish interest.

I agree with you, of course. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[Zachary Young]

I see no reason why income inequality is undesirable. Without inequality of wealth our society could not function. If the egalitarians got their way, who would build sky scrapers or other such capital intensive projects? We should be far more concerned with how we can make the poor rich, not by being obsessed by how much richer some people are than others. What is really at issue though is the justice of wealth. In particular, wealth can either be created (the means of the market) or it can be stolen (the governmental method). It is immoral to steal or redistribute wealth, so anyone who gets rich because of the government should be condemned. But those who get rich by creating wealth deserve every dime in their pockets.

[Guest Derek L]

NO tax amnesty applies.

Criminal punishment applies.

Everything is on the table.

And ... please tell me when you find out what percentage of Canadians - all ages, all men women and children - fall below the 'average'.

You have to be realistic though, much of that money that is “hidden” offshore wouldn’t be coming back to Canada…….The government of Canada can’t “force” banks in the Caymans or Switzerland to seize Canadian citizens assets in some massive tax grab…..It wouldn’t happen, full stop.

As for tougher laws against any future tax fraud, on all levels, I’d agree to that 100%……..

Well we’re at it, let’s lower the corporate rate, but do away with all forms of deductions, incentives, subsidies etc……..Let’s make the guy(or girl) that owns the Hot Dog stand pay the same rate as the “Big Oil” company…..and neither receive any form of taxpayer money…..no more bail outs too!!

Per StatCan:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a-eng.htm

In 2009, average household income, after tax, with children: $84800....Add the tax to that, and that would push it over 100k....

[Zachary Young]

Tougher laws on tax "fraud"? You have to be kidding me! What a terrible idea. First of all, it isn't "fraud" to not pay taxes. No one should have to pay taxes. Tax resisters are courageous individuals. Taxation is theft. If someone is mugged in an alleyway and they decide to fight off the attacker and not give up their wallet you wouldn't call that "alleyway fraud" would you? The real fraud is this idea that somehow the government deserves every dollar we make and if we get to keep any we are lucky. The more tax loop holes and ways for people to get out of paying taxes the better.

[Guest Derek L]

Tougher laws on tax "fraud"? You have to be kidding me! What a terrible idea. First of all, it isn't "fraud" to not pay taxes. No one should have to pay taxes. Tax resisters are courageous individuals. Taxation is theft. If someone is mugged in an alleyway and they decide to fight off the attacker and not give up their wallet you wouldn't call that "alleyway fraud" would you? The real fraud is this idea that somehow the government deserves every dollar we make and if we get to keep any we are lucky. The more tax loop holes and ways for people to get out of paying taxes the better.

Well, technically, it is fraud hiding your income.

[Guest Derek L]

Tougher laws on tax "fraud"? You have to be kidding me! What a terrible idea. First of all, it isn't "fraud" to not pay taxes. No one should have to pay taxes. Tax resisters are courageous individuals. Taxation is theft. If someone is mugged in an alleyway and they decide to fight off the attacker and not give up their wallet you wouldn't call that "alleyway fraud" would you? The real fraud is this idea that somehow the government deserves every dollar we make and if we get to keep any we are lucky. The more tax loop holes and ways for people to get out of paying taxes the better.

For your own reading:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-3.3/page-1.html#h-3

[Zachary Young]

That's not fraud. It's self defence. Fraud is when you lie in order to unethically get money from someone. Fraud is what the government does when it claims we have to pay taxes. That's the real fraud. It's not fraud to try to prevent someone from stealing from you. That's called rational behaviour.

[Zachary Young]

And for yours :

http://murrayrothbard.com/against-taxation/

[Guest Derek L]

That's not fraud. It's self defence. Fraud is when you lie in order to unethically get money from someone. Fraud is what the government does when it claims we have to pay taxes. That's the real fraud. It's not fraud to try to prevent someone from stealing from you. That's called rational behaviour.

Ahh....no, Fraud is:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-380-20030101.html

380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,

Maybe pass on to "Murray", that the US definition of fraud and tax evasion, though not the same as Canada’s, are similar in many ways……..If he ever needs a Lawyer…..

[Zachary Young]

Yes, I know what fraud means. Fraud is when you lie to other people in order to get their money. That's what the government does constantly. Not paying your taxes is not fraud, because there's no justification for taxation in the first place. If I tell you to give me $50 for no reason, and you refuse, you're not committing fraud. The key problem with taxation is there is no consent. You cannot just unilaterally decide I owe you $50, for me to owe you $50 we must first have some sort of an arrangement, we must agree to trade $50 worth of stuff, for example.

[William Ashley]

I'm not accusing you. I'm accusing the top 1percent holders of 40percent of the wealth, and increasing their share at the expense of the other 99percent of us (including you).

....

Jacee this actually jogged my memory on the following point: Even though they are wealthy they are not all about maximizing how much they hold, many just utilize the system to have it work for their best interest, as everyone should be doing - getting the most out of the world. (Bearing ethics and the effects on others)

The thing though is, this directly reminded me about an article related to Sarkozy and Warren Buffet in France. Warren Buffet was part of a group "Tax Us", ~~~~~

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2011/08/wsj-.html

~~~~~ ,that called for an increase in taxation of the rich.

So I thought that the whole let them eat cake, thing , they arn't necisarily saying that, but they are willing to share the bread or more of it anyway, in some cases.

We can't classify the whole of the wealthy even some of the most as completely ignorant bourgeois bent on colonial oppression of the lesser classes. They could say - adjust their profit margins, and lower the CLI but they feel socialism, and governmental agents as the "protectors" of public interest may be a better option to current low tax rates for the wealthiest. They don't seem to feel personally inclined aside from their own charitable organizations - the government afterall does allow deductions for charity - however even they recognize that they have a lot of money - although in reality it isn't that much wealth --- capitalization is often misrepresented - a lot of things with great value like trees or water often arn't ascribed their "real value" just their current value. Non renewable resources are worth much more now then they are right now, tomorrow, if you don't mind the juttering.

Wealth is an idea relative to cultural concepts of wealth. Ownership is a social organization, it is fabricated, however reinforced by common law concepts of property title and rights. When it comes down to it, either you depend on the government to protect your property or you hold your own. If you are the government it makes it easier. You can say as part of a society we hold everything and/or nothing in perpetuity. If your mind is in the right place you are working for tomorrow, not only for yourself, but for the whole of your ideal of society.

Qu'ils mangent de la brioche

Oddly France has one of the highest tax rates in the world...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

It is actually surprising that inheritance taxation is 40% for those very wealthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France

Edited September 16, 2011 by William Ashley

[Zachary Young]

The economy is not a game of monopoly. There isn't X dollars to go around. It's a positive sum game. On the free market wealth is created. When someone gets rich by satisfying the needs of consumers, not only does not that hurt you, it helps you. Don't be motivated by jealousy, and don't for a second think you are entitled to the money that I have earned.

[jacee]

You have to be realistic though, much of that money that is “hidden” offshore wouldn’t be coming back to Canada…….The government of Canada can’t “force” banks in the Caymans or Switzerland to seize Canadian citizens assets in some massive tax grab…..It wouldn’t happen, full stop.

As for tougher laws against any future tax fraud, on all levels, I’d agree to that 100%……..

Pfffffttt! Useless to toughen laws until we enforce the ones we have. Nope, we want that OFFSHORE UNTAXED 20percent of Canada's total wealth back in the country.

Per StatCan:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a-eng.htm

In 2009, average household income, after tax, with children: $84800....Add the tax to that, and that would push it over 100k....

And of course my original concern with your data is that 'average income' data for Canada are too high to truly represent the bulk of Canadian people because of the influence of a few extremely high incomes.

Compare:

The 2008 median income 'Two parent with children' of $65,000 (my data)

The 2008 average income 'Tpwc' of $85,000 (your data table)

The median income is the best indicator because it isn't influenced by the few megahigh incomes, while the average income is.

The $20,000 difference between them is the effect of the megahigh income families.

It's pretty substantial.

And it distorts peoples' perceptions of 'average' families.

More telling than either median or average income is the actual distribution of income but lately it's hard to find it in detail.

Here are some facts and estimates I've come up with:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/access_acces/alternative_alternatif.action?l=eng&loc=http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/13f0026m/13f0026m2006001-eng.pdf&t=The%20Wealth%20of%20Canadians:%20An%20Overview%20of%20the%20Results%20of%20the%20Survey%20of%20Financial%20Security%20(Pension%20and%20Wealth%20Research%20Paper%20Series)

Each 1percent represents 115k Canadian households.

The wealthiEST 1% (115k households)

share 40% of Canada's (reported) total wealth,

with median household net worth of $175m

(ie, half of them more than that, half of them less).

The next 19% (2.2m households)

share 29% of the wealth

And the next 20% (2.5m households)

Share another 20% of the wealth

Median net worth of these households is $450k

The next 20% (2.5m households)

Share 8.4% of the wealth

Median net worth $175k

The next 20% (2.5m)

Share 2.3% of the wealth

Median net worth $50k

The final 20% of Canadian households (5.5m) share .1% of Canada's wealth

With net worth of -$3k

Point being ... Without the wealthiEST 1% the wealth distribution looks pretty reasonable.

But there's a huge gap between them and the rest of us, the other99%.

And then there's half again their REPORTED wealth in OFFSHORE UNTAXED criminal tax evasion accounts.

Play with the taxation numbers if you like,

But the real taxation problem still lies with the wealthiEST 1% who own 60% of Canada's wealth with over $550b in taxes owing, the amount of Canada's debt.

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

I see no reason why income inequality is undesirable. Without inequality of wealth our society could not function.

And with too much, and increasing income disparity, civil unrest disrupts functioning too, so it,s a balancing act.

[Guest Derek L]

Pfffffttt! Useless to toughen laws until we enforce the ones we have. Nope, we want that OFFSHORE UNTAXED 20percent of Canada's total wealth back in the country.

And of course my original concern is that 'average income' data for Canada are too high to truly represent the bulk of Canadian people because of the influence of a few extremely high incomes.

Compare:

The 2008 median income 'Two parent with children' of $65,000 (my data)

The 2008 average income 'Tpwc' of $85,000 (your data table)

The median income is the best indicator because it isn't influenced by the few megahigh incomes, while the average income is.

The $20,000 difference between them is the effect of the megahigh income families.

It's pretty substantial.

And it distorts peoples' perceptions of 'average' families.

More telling than either median or average income is the actual distribution of income but lately it's hard to find it in detail.

Here are some facts and estimates I've come up with:

Each 1percent represents 115k Canadian households.

The wealthiEST 1% (115k households)

share 40% of Canada's (reported) total wealth,

with median household net worth of $175m

(ie, half of them more than that, half of them less).

The next 19% (2.2m households)

share 29% of the wealth

And the next 20% (2.5m households)

Share another 20% of the wealth

Median net worth of these households is $450k

The next 20% (2.5m households)

Share 8.4% of the wealth

Median net worth $175k

The next 20% (2.5m)

Share 2.3% of the wealth

Median net worth $50k

The final 20% of Canadian households (5.5m) share .1% of Canada's wealth

With net worth of -$3k

Point being ... Without the wealthiEST 1% the wealth distribution looks pretty reasonable.

But there's a huge gap between them and the rest of us, the other99%.

And then there's half again their REPORTED wealth in OFFSHORE UNTAXED criminal tax evasion accounts.

Play with the taxation numbers if you like,

But the real taxation problem still lies with the wealthiEST 1% who own 60% of Canada's wealth with over $550b in taxes owing, the amount of Canada's debt.

So, you’re suggesting the 1%ers, who hide their wealth offshore, are skewing the data of the average household income due to their hidden wealth?

Do you have a source?

And I'll ask again, I've been forthright in my earnings, what did you pay in taxes last year? As a mater of perspective.

[Bob]

"Household income" should never be measured. Only individual income. Ideally, you're also adding other relevant context such as age and education. Real flesh and blood move through these categories throughout their lives, static-imaginary people do not.

[GostHacked]

Well, technically, it is fraud hiding your income.

Is there ever any reprocussions when the government commits fraud with our money?

[CPCFTW]

Pfffffttt! Useless to toughen laws until we enforce the ones we have. Nope, we want that OFFSHORE UNTAXED 20percent of Canada's total wealth back in the country.

And of course my original concern is that 'average income' data for Canada are too high to truly represent the bulk of Canadian people because of the influence of a few extremely high incomes.

Compare:

The 2008 median income 'Two parent with children' of $65,000 (my data)

The 2008 average income 'Tpwc' of $85,000 (your data table)

The median income is the best indicator because it isn't influenced by the few megahigh incomes, while the average income is.

The $20,000 difference between them is the effect of the megahigh income families.

It's pretty substantial.

And it distorts peoples' perceptions of 'average' families.

More telling than either median or average income is the actual distribution of income but lately it's hard to find it in detail.

Here are some facts and estimates I've come up with:

Each 1percent represents 115k Canadian households.

The wealthiEST 1% (115k households)

share 40% of Canada's (reported) total wealth,

with median household net worth of $175m

(ie, half of them more than that, half of them less).

The next 19% (2.2m households)

share 29% of the wealth

And the next 20% (2.5m households)

Share another 20% of the wealth

Median net worth of these households is $450k

The next 20% (2.5m households)

Share 8.4% of the wealth

Median net worth $175k

The next 20% (2.5m)

Share 2.3% of the wealth

Median net worth $50k

The final 20% of Canadian households (5.5m) share .1% of Canada's wealth

With net worth of -$3k

Point being ... Without the wealthiEST 1% the wealth distribution looks pretty reasonable.

But there's a huge gap between them and the rest of us, the other99%.

And then there's half again their REPORTED wealth in OFFSHORE UNTAXED criminal tax evasion accounts.

Play with the taxation numbers if you like,

But the real taxation problem still lies with the wealthiEST 1% who own 60% of Canada's wealth with over $550b in taxes owing, the amount of Canada's debt.

We get it. The top 1% wealthiest people are very wealthy.. Who would have thought!?

[Zachary Young]

It sickens me the way people think they can attack and steal from the rich just because they are rich. Why don't you focus on improving your life and not on ruining the lives of others?

[CPCFTW]

It sickens me the way people think they can attack and steal from the rich just because they are rich. Why don't you focus on improving your life and not on ruining the lives of others?

Me too... it's just jealousy which they subconsciously mask as altruism. It's funny in a sickening kind of way.

[Zachary Young]

We live in a kleptocracy. Our political process has became a game of rent seeking behaviour, who can loot the most from whom.

[jacee]

So, you’re suggesting the 1%ers, who hide their wealth offshore, are skewing the data of the average household income due to their hidden wealth?

Do you have a source?

The 1%ers REPORTED income skews the data even without their UNREPORTED income included.

Statscan source is now included in the post with the table I created from their data.

My point in creating that table is to demonstrate in simple terms that the 1%ers are different from the ordinarily wealthy people of Canada.

They hide 20% of Canada's total wealth UNREPORTED, OFFSHORE UNTAXED, while their REPORTED income still makes them far FAR wealthier than the next wealthiest Canadians, whom I'm calling the ordinarily wealthy.

In fact, they hold the ordinarily wealthy Canadians to ransom: Since they don't pay their taxes on 1/3 of their income from Canada, the rest of us have to make up for it either through increased taxation or reductions in services and JOBS. And since the poor have no wealth to pay taxes and the middle class is fast disappearing, who's going to be on the hook for this round, to pay the taxes the megarich have avoided? It's the ordinarily wealthy Canadians, the ones who 'defend' the rights of the megarich.

The "austerity" agenda that came out of the G20 in Toronto last summer and is now being implemented around the world and CAUSING RIOTS is about balancing budgets. IF the megarich were paying ALL of the taxes owing, we wouldn't have a federal debt or deficit.

See the big scam now? And who do you think is making money on the interest on the federal debt and deficit? It's a Ponzi scheme for the megarich!

It's not the first time around this path and it won't be the last, unless we ENFORCE OUR CURRENT LAWS and make all Canadians pay their allotted share of taxes on ALL of the wealth they suck out of Canada's resources including the hard work of 99% of Canadians.

And who do you think 'owns' our government and its 'austerity' agenda?

Who do you think represented Canada at the G20?

The megarich ... along with their willing servants in government, whose salaries WE PAY to represent our interests ... but they don't represent 99% of us: They represent only the 1%ers.

So keep in mind when the civil unrest comes ... It isn't about the ordinarily wealthy Canadians - It's about the megarich 1%ers who not only have the majority of Canada's wealth, but also wield the power to keep it that way.

And it has nothing to do with who's in power, LIB-CON same story. Remember Paul Martin's 'austerity' campaign? And where do you think his wealth is hoarded? Where are his CSL ships registered? Liberia? Not in Canada, that's for sure!

We of the other99% are virtually all their puppets.

Eta ...

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/24679

Power Corp. is the power behind the Canadian government, through both Liberal and Conservative governments. There is ample proof that the roots of Power Corp. continued far beyond the anti-American Chretien dynasty. Described by Raspberry Xpress in 2002, “Paul Desmarais is linked to the Privy Council, which nfluences the Prime Minister, a Liberal Prime Minister, to Brian Mulroney, a former Progressive Conservative Prime Minister. The probable future Liberal Prime Minister and now a surge of interest to reinstate the former Prime Minister as Progressive Conservative eader. So who is controlling the federa government?” Those who keep a watchful eye on internationa Pooh-bahs already know the answer ...

Who are the wealthiEST people in Canada?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadians_by_net_worth

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

Interesting poll of Canadian Business subscribers, CEO POLL re Warren Buffett's comments that the rich should be taxed more:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/43656--the-ceo-poll-soaking-the-super-rich

Highest scores (out of a possible 7 points):

5.6

"Taxes shouldn't be raised without closing tax loopholes - they're the real problem."

"Buffett is showing wisdom, courage and leadership."

So it looks like we are agreed. However, I would suggest that increased taxes should NOT apply to 'ordinarily wealthy' Canadians, but only to the superrich: $250k is FAR too low.

That's just the superrich and their government servants trying to soak 'ordinarily wealthy' Canadians for the taxes that should be paid by the superrich powermongers!

Didn't I tell you they would?

Don't fall for that crap!

Make the richEST pay!

AND go after the Canadian bankers who are criminal accessories to tax fraud, helping the superrich hide their money offshore untaxed.

Edited September 16, 2011 by jacee

[bloodyminded]

We live in a kleptocracy. Our political process has became a game of rent seeking behaviour, who can loot the most from whom.

Kleptocracy only means those in power stealing from everyone else.

Often it is used to describe the theft of money by the richest (who also have disproportionate power).