How important is health care as an issue in the upcoming provincial el

[thepatrickblack]

Is health-care the primary Ontario 2011 election issue (like 2006)? How important, or not important, is it to you?

POLL:

[Wild Bill]

Is health-care the primary Ontario 2011 election issue (like 2006)? How important, or not important, is it to you?

POLL:

As I commented on the FB page, I think the only reason the question is being asked is because Dalton has been using health care as a supposed success story in his campaign ads.

Dalton has very few real success stories, at least those that are important to the voters. That leaves trumpeting the hell out of whatever he's got, I guess.

[Newfoundlander]

Why isn't this in the provincial politics section?

[thepatrickblack]

I've definitely heard increased health-care funding proposals from both sides of the political spectrum.

[PIK]

I can't believe in the amount of people that want to vote for this guy, never in the history of canada had we had such a bold face liar in politics.

[Michael Hardner]

As I commented on the FB page, I think the only reason the question is being asked is because Dalton has been using health care as a supposed success story in his campaign ads.

Dalton has very few real success stories, at least those that are important to the voters. That leaves trumpeting the hell out of whatever he's got, I guess.

http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Wait_times_tables_2011_en.pdf

This is the report that everyone should be looking at and discussing.

Does anybody even know who CIHI is ? This is what I mean about there being no 'public' to discuss the matter.

[thepatrickblack]

http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Wait_times_tables_2011_en.pdf

This is the report that everyone should be looking at and discussing.

Does anybody even know who CIHI is ? This is what I mean about there being no 'public' to discuss the matter.

What is the CIHI?

[Michael Hardner]

The Canadian Institute for Health Information.

They are supposed to be our source for healthcare information.

I would ask the CIHI to provide easy to read, frequent, and independently audited healthcare stats for public consumption, and for governments to provide access to an online forum (non-anonymous) where individuals can discuss how healthcare is working.

Responses would be provided by fellow citizen/patients, and stakeholders (government, administration, various labour resources and associations)

[fellowtraveller]

It is important for every party to pretend they are ready to have a mature and frank discussion. In reality none of them are ready, and few Candians in general are ready.

It is a shame really, because there should be no ignoring of the reality that our population is aging rapidly, and that there will never be enough money to keep all of us alive forever.

It is the most important topic in Canada, and nobody can open their mouths to speak without being shouted down.

There are no votes for anybody except in mouthing platitudes, so that is what we can expect at election time.

[Wild Bill]

Why isn't this in the provincial politics section?

Yer right, me old trout!

Just another example of Ontario hoggin' all the action, I guess!

BTW, our families are neighbours. My mother's side is from Pictou, N.S. Occasionally one of my uncles would row a dory over to the rock for drinkin' and dancin', which resulted in a bit of Newfoundland blood running in the family tree.

[Michael Hardner]

It is important for every party to pretend they are ready to have a mature and frank discussion. In reality none of them are ready, and few Candians in general are ready.

Maybe they are ready, but nobody wants to speak the truth in the glare of MASS media. Note the word MASS, as it describes media meant for the MASSES not the public.

It is a shame really, because there should be no ignoring of the reality that our population is aging rapidly, and that there will never be enough money to keep all of us alive forever.

Very true. A true public would need to understand that healthcare is about making choices about how to assign resources. This means there are hard choices that need to be made always.

Although our population is aging, I believe I saw a statistic that says that countries that didn't experience a baby boom are also seeing similar rises in spending.

This makes sense. Health is important, and we are rich.

It is the most important topic in Canada, and nobody can open their mouths to speak without being shouted down.

This is a function of our methods of communicating, but yes I agree.

There are no votes for anybody except in mouthing platitudes, so that is what we can expect at election time.

Exactly correct. You make a choice on healthcare policy once every four years or so, when you mark an 'x' on a piece of paper. Oh, and you're also making choices about the environment, economics and a few other small matters.

[fellowtraveller]

Note the word MASS, as it describes media meant for the MASSES not the public.

I don't get the distinction.

Health is important, and we are rich.

The point I am making is that though we are rich, there is a finite % of GDP, or provincial budget, or individual finance that can be spent on health care. Not a dollar amount, but a percentage amount. We may be there already, which means that we either have to stop spending as much on public funding of healthcare, cut other core services like education to reassign funds, raise taxes dramatically or allow for private spending on health care- or all four.

It is not going to fix itself, and the way things are going our leaders are not going to fix it either.

AB is in the middle of a Tory leadership campaign, and two candidates have basically said " let's talk about health care options". Both already regret having done so.

We are going to need a massive economic crisis to wake up and see our world as it is, not as we want it to be. Until then, it is all idle chatter with nobody willing to demonstrate leadership, tell all the interest groups to STFU, and keep the discussion on topic.

[Smallc]

I don't get the distinction.

The point I am making is that though we are rich, there is a finite % [of] individual finance that can be spent on health care. --- or allow for private spending on health care

I edited your post. Do you see why this won't work?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't get the distinction.

Here's a definition:

http://ccit300.wikispaces.com/Public+vs.+Mass+Society

I don't entirely agree with it, but you get the idea.

Our society is designed for publics, however with the invention of mass media, the public is effectively treated like masses.

The point I am making is that though we are rich, there is a finite % of GDP, or provincial budget, or individual finance that can be spent on health care. Not a dollar amount, but a percentage amount. We may be there already, which means that we either have to stop spending as much on public funding of healthcare, cut other core services like education to reassign funds, raise taxes dramatically or allow for private spending on health care- or all four.

It is not going to fix itself, and the way things are going our leaders are not going to fix it either.

Nobody can fix it unless there is a forum to attempt to build consensus of some kind, and to make intelligent evaluation of decisions.

AB is in the middle of a Tory leadership campaign, and two candidates have basically said " let's talk about health care options". Both already regret having done so.

The problems are too complex to be discussed as part of a television debate or - worse - through TV ads.

We are going to need a massive economic crisis to wake up and see our world as it is, not as we want it to be. Until then, it is all idle chatter with nobody willing to demonstrate leadership, tell all the interest groups to STFU, and keep the discussion on topic.

Economically, things are much better than they were - they almost always are. The problem is that resources are not allocated intelligently, or with understanding and consensus of a thinking public.

[Michael Hardner]

The fact that these issues are dense and boring can actually work in FAVOUR of finding solutions. Those who check in half-heartedly or without due attention will not be interested in the types of discussions we need to have.

The government needs to create a new way to involve the public, and perhaps start a pilot project from the ground up with that in mind. A public will develop around this new institution, and problems will be thrashed out, and compromises made.

[fellowtraveller]

Here's a definition:

Thanks for the link, but I would bet that the authors(2004) would revise it dramatically in 2011. I doubt there is much distinction between the two now given the social networks and the Interwebs that are accessible to billions. Lookee here, we're on one example now!

The fact that these issues are dense and boring can actually work in FAVOUR of finding solutions

Disagree, health care is an issue that people react to strongly. The problem is that they do not react rationally. There is no data with health care, every 'discussion' comes down to anecdotes.

The problem is that resources are not allocated intelligently,

In yopur mind, is there any limit to how much of the public purse goes to health care? Is health care always more valuable than public safety or public education?

[Remiel]

I can't believe in the amount of people that want to vote for this guy, never in the history of canada had we had such a bold face liar in politics.

I doubt it. If Jim " Canada Will Be Just Fine " Flaherty is not a more bald faced liar than McGuinty could ever be, then his incompetence must really know no bounds.

[Argus]

http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Wait_times_tables_2011_en.pdf

This is the report that everyone should be looking at and discussing.

Does anybody even know who CIHI is ? This is what I mean about there being no 'public' to discuss the matter.

I'm extremely dubious about the value of information on wait times for a few "priority' medical procedures given that unethical politicians, i.e. Dalton McGuinty, will simply funnel money into those procedures and OUT of other procedures in order to make himself look good.