Health care system needs to be reformed - NOW!

Speedy von Vloppen · August 30, 2011

How do they know ? How would we know if it were working or not ?

Their WHO ranking is high. Polls show the German public is happy with the system.

And, btw, I'm not saying that Canada has to adopt a public/private system. The current system works way better than the one in the US. The wait periods to see specialists could conceivably be shortened by improving the doctor/patient ratio, as others have suggested. I'm only saying that it's possible for public and private insurance to coexist and work well.

bush_cheney2004 · August 30, 2011

It could be set up to not drain resources from the public system. In Germany everyone has to pay taxes into the public system, even if they opt out and purchase private insurance. It's similar to how in the US you have to pay taxes that support public schools even if you send your child to a private one...

It's even more similar to how in the US you have to pay Medicare taxes on income to fund a very "public system".

Smallc · August 30, 2011

Once again, I think you didn't read my words very closely. Perhaps you should slow down a bit. I never referred to Stoney Creek or Hamilton. I spoke of Niagara Region.

There are walk in clinics in the niagara region, so what are you talking about again? I'm really having a difficult time understanding the point or the content of what you're saying. You hate where you live (whether it be your city, your province, or Canada. I get it. Other than that, I'm not sure.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Smallc

Smallc · August 30, 2011

It could be set up to not drain resources from the public system. In Germany everyone has to pay taxes into the public system, even if they opt out and purchase private insurance.

But there are only so many doctors with so much time.

Michael Hardner · August 30, 2011

Their WHO ranking is high. Polls show the German public is happy with the system.

If Canadian polls showed that they're happy with our system, what does it mean ? Does it mean that the system is good, or that Canadians aren't asking questions about it ?

bush_cheney2004 · August 30, 2011

But there are only so many doctors with so much time.

Ummmmm...don't the doctors and other medical professionals get any say in this matter? Or do they just have to vote with their feet (again)?

Michael Hardner · August 30, 2011

But there are only so many doctors with so much time.

I wonder what they spend their time on ? Are there ways we can make sure that they're doctoring and not administering, filling out reports, and so on ?

When they ARE doctoring, what are these doctoring tasks ?

Lots of questions...

Best way to answer, IMO, would be for accountable teams - representing medical professionals, administration/government, and public to look into these things and publish the results for all to see.

Of course, this work is being done now but we have no public and no way to verify what is happening...

Smallc · August 30, 2011

Those are all good questions that could lead to solutions, unlike privatization.

Wild Bill · August 30, 2011

There are walk in clinics in the niagara region, so what are you talking about again? I'm really having a difficult time understanding the point or the content of what you're saying. You hate where you live (whether it be your city, your province, or Canada. I get it. Other than that, I'm not sure.

Well, I already posted that I was going by information given to me by friends who actually live there. If you from your perch in Winnipeg have info that would prove my assumption and that of the people who live there wrong I'd be glad to hear about it.

As for loving or hating wherever I live, does how I feel about a place change what's right or wrong with it?

Michael Hardner · August 30, 2011

Those are all good questions that could lead to solutions, unlike privatization.

I don't know if privatization wouldn't solve some problems, especially in management.

Having worked with members of the medical profession, I found them to be uninterested in looking outside their profession for help with problems, including problems that they ostensibly should not be good at solving like administration.

Smallc · August 30, 2011

I don't know if privatization wouldn't solve some problems, especially in management.

There's still going to need to be an interaction with government, which could lead to even more bureaucracy. I'm not saying it would, but there's a good chance.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Smallc

bloodyminded · August 30, 2011

There's still going to need to be an interaction with government, which could lead to even more bureaucracy. I'm not saying it would, but there's a good chance.

Privatized health systems are intensely bureacratic, despite weird opinions to the contrary.

I don't know if it has to be that way...but the fact remains that it is that way.

Smallc · August 30, 2011

Well, I already posted that I was going by information given to me by friends who actually live there. If you from your perch in Winnipeg have info that would prove my assumption and that of the people who live there wrong I'd be glad to hear about it.

Google says that there is. I'll trust Google.

As for loving or hating wherever I live, does how I feel about a place change what's right or wrong with it?

It definitely colours your perception of what's right and wrong with it. You seem to be someone that's always looking for problems, and always seeing greener grass somewhere else. It definitely colours your views on the issues. It also doesn't help that you believe everyone disagreeing with you is being emotional, while it's you that is in fact being emotional.

Smallc · August 30, 2011

There area also walk in clinics in Niagara Falls. I'm sure I can find more if you'd like.

Wild Bill · August 30, 2011

Google says that there is. I'll trust Google.

It definitely colours your perception of what's right and wrong with it. You seem to be someone that's always looking for problems, and always seeing greener grass somewhere else. It definitely colours your views on the issues. It also doesn't help that you believe everyone disagreeing with you is being emotional, while it's you that is in fact being emotional.

So optimism and pessimism are not emotional?

wyly · August 30, 2011

I don't know if privatization wouldn't solve some problems, especially in management.

Having worked with members of the medical profession, I found them to be uninterested in looking outside their profession for help with problems, including problems that they ostensibly should not be good at solving like administration.

more likely you like others have a story that you're trying to fit the facts to and if they don't you ignore those facts...canadian healthcare administration has been found to be much more efficient than US private healthcare over and over again but despite that you look for evidence to the contrary...

wyly · August 30, 2011

Allowing private insurance would not necessarily take doctors out of the public system. It depends on how it's set up. In Germany, most doctors accept both public and private insurance. When I was living there, I noticed the first question the receptionist at the doctor would always ask was, "Do you have public or private insurance?" Then you would hand in a certificate known as a "Krankenschein" that gave them all your insurance info. Keep in mind, the public insurance system is different in Germany. There's not a single public option like Medicare. The government has actually created numerous publicly funded insurance companies like Medicare. Every person is required to buy into one of those or to choose private insurance, which does not get government funding. I agree with you that it would be a mistake to create a public and private system where doctors quit public service. However, it's entirely possible for doctors to serve both the publicly and privately insured without destroying the quality of the public system. In Germany about 10 percent of the population is privately insured, while most of the population goes for one of the more affordable public plans. I got my public insurance from a company named AOK (http://www.aok.de/bundesweit/). Best health insurance I've ever had! It was way, way better than the GARBAGE I have now (Aetna), which is extensive and routinely finds excuses for not covering me. The German public/private health care system does have its strange and uncomfortable quirks. The privately insured pay more and get better service. It's not uncommon for a privately insured person to be to the front of the line to when others have been waiting to see the doctor.

There's a PBS video named "Sick Around the World" that shows how different countries handle health insurance. The countries shown are United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Taiwan and Switzerland. It's aimed at an American audience, but I think Canadians interested in improving their health care system will benefit from seeing it. It's free to watch online (though it's not working as I write this) or a DVD can be ordered. It's here:

My link

(I do not work for or have any financial interest in PBS, btw.)

the entire arguement falls apart on simple math, Germany has 30% more MD's per K than Canada...MD's cannot work in two systems at once for every private case a MD sees to he/she must do one fewer public, MD's already have more patients than they can see in a timely manner, letting the wealthy push to the head of the line will only increase the wait times for those in the public system...

Smallc · August 30, 2011

So optimism and pessimism are not emotional?

They are, and I never said they weren't, but your arguments are rarely based on statistical fact, and even in the face of said statistics, you accuse someone else of being emotional. It doesn't really make much sense.

fellowtraveller · August 31, 2011

Which is why I could believe it to be true, like Saipan said, that the shortage is manufactured.

The shortage of doctors is in some measure the direct result of efforts of doctors themselves to maintain their level of income and privilege. Admissions, graduations, licensing- all heavily influenced by medical associations. There is a certain amount of 'no sharing of the finite pie" in every province.

I really don't get the hysteria over 'private medicine'? What does that mean, exactly? The vast majority of docs are private practicioners, they don't work for the government and would be offended if that were suggested.

Tons of procedures are not covered now by public plans, and lots more will be deregistered and soon. We'd better get used to it.

Two tier care has always existed and always will, just ask Danny Williams and many more. A friend just went to Phoenix to get her knee done, she had been waiting for two years with one more to go, can't stand it anymore and has the money($7500 plus airfare and hotels).

Argus · August 31, 2011

How could it not? If not actually taking doctors, it's still taking their time that would otherwise be spent in the public system.

Yes, but that doctor is seeing a patient which would otherwise be in the public system. So there's no losss, except that the public doesn't have to pay for the visit.

Michael Hardner · August 31, 2011

more likely you like others have a story that you're trying to fit the facts to and if they don't you ignore those facts...canadian healthcare administration has been found to be much more efficient than US private healthcare over and over again but despite that you look for evidence to the contrary...

Wyly, I hate to call you out like this, but...

You're falling into the same narrow thinking that many who defend our system fall into.

You say that the American system isn't good, and then you compare our system to theirs. If their system is bad, is that any benchmark for us ?

To boot, you accuse me of fitting the facts to a preconceived bias I have against our system.

I like our system, but I think that it could be a lot better. It's lazy thinking to compare the 'us' to the US. We should be thinking of ways to make it better, not just talking about America vs Canada again and again.

bush_cheney2004 · August 31, 2011

...I like our system, but I think that it could be a lot better. It's lazy thinking to compare the 'us' to the US. We should be thinking of ways to make it better, not just talking about America vs Canada again and again.

I agree...the Americans have already rejected Canada's single payer system as definitely not "best in class". Better solutions can be found elsewhere.

Sir Bandelot · August 31, 2011

Not all is as rosy with the US health care system as some would like us to believe. This timely article shows us that every system has its own problems:

U.S. newborn death rate tied with Qatar

South Korea, Cuba, Malaysia, Lithuania, Poland and Israel all outrank the U.S

8/30/2011 5:31:59 PM ET

Babies in the United States have a higher risk of dying during their first month of life than do babies born in 40 other countries, according to a new report.

Some of the countries that outrank the United States in terms of newborn death risk are South Korea, Cuba, Malaysia, Lithuania, Poland and Israel, according to the study.

"We know that solutions as simple as keeping newborns warm, clean and properly breast-fed can keep them alive," said study researcher Joy Lawn of the Save the Children Foundation, which worked with the WHO on the report. "It isn't that you have to build invasive care units to halve your neonatal mortality."

More health care workers, including midwives, are needed to teach and implement these lifesaving practices, she said.

The United States dropped from No. 28 to No. 41 in the rankings of newborn death risk. It is now tied with Qatar, Croatia and United Arab Emirates.

One of the bigger challenges in the U.S. is complications from preterm birth, Lawn said. The U.S. rate of preterm birth is double that of countries in Europe and Northern Africa, she said. Babies who are born preterm need extra care that is often expensive. While there are few things that can reduce preterm birth, she noted that disadvantaged people in the United States may be less likely to receive proper care for preterm infants.

If progress is not made to reduce the number of newborn deaths, the portion of child deaths that occur in the neonatal period is likely to increase in the future, the researchers said.

"It is essential that national governments, international agencies, and civil society increase attention to systematically preventing and tracking neonatal deaths," the researchers wrote.

The study is published today (Aug. 30) in the journal PLoS Medicine.

Oh, civil society. Oh, I see. That's like "advanced societies", isn't it.

Michael Hardner · August 31, 2011

Not all is as rosy with the US health care system as some would like us to believe. This timely article shows us that every system has its own problems:

Why even bring it up ?

I was on a podcast with someone who defended the Canadian system, and I asked her why. I then counted in my head how long it took her to bring up the U.S. system and it took less than 30 seconds.

It's weird.

bush_cheney2004 · August 31, 2011

It's weird.

Not really....as has been discussed in other threads....even the Canadian identity is defined in terms of !American. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.