Michael Hardner Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 What do you mean by messed up politics? The fact that people cannot agree on the best approach to the stated problem? Is this unusual? Given the potential scope of the problem, it is a little unusual yes. We're unable to come to consensus on big issues these days, and that's a problem. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 You acknowledge that the science is correct and that the politics is messed up - so you have passed the test. Whoa podner... the science is also "correct" for eugenics, but that doesn't mean we should go down that road. If other people want to howl at the moon over crazy ideas, you can indulge them and make them feel good about themselves if you like - I won't do that. Far from it...I want them to howl at the lemming response to what we should do about it. Wild Bill knows the difference between a converter and an inverter....most people don't. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Remiel Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 You have conflated them...not I. Ecomomics facilitates politics of all stripes. So does science. What is your point? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 So does science. What is your point? Science is mostly research...not applied engineering and the constraints of practical objectives and solutions. AGW alarmists have continued to make the mistake of assuming that findings in the science space automatically translate into a call to action as a "moral" imperative, when clearly it does not. Polar Bear videos are not going to get it done. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
TimG Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 We're unable to come to consensus on big issues these days, and that's a problem.The US deficit is a big problem. No consensus there. A similar disconnect exists in Canada when it comes to crime and punishment. There are lot of difficult problems where achieving political consensus is impossible. Climate change is not unusual. Quote
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 IOW, using your brain instead of your mouth! I notice I still haven't seen any reply from him. I really don't expect him to answer any of my questions. I don't really believe he can do anything but get together with other folks who couldn't replace a plug on a lamp and "raise their awareness"! How about using some common sense...More fuel efficient cars. More mass transportation. Less clear cutting of forests. More use of green technology like solar and wind. Better city planning that allows for safer bicycle transportation, and walking. Better building codes that require better energy reduction. Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
Remiel Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Science is mostly research...not applied engineering and the constraints of practical objectives and solutions. AGW alarmists have continued to make the mistake of assuming that findings in the science space automatically translate into a call to action as a "moral" imperative, when clearly it does not. Polar Bear videos are not going to get it done. If scientific findings are not properly considered by politicians, it is the fault of the politicians, not the science. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 If scientific findings are not properly considered by politicians, it is the fault of the politicians, not the science. Precisely...but political frameworks will not yield to mere empirical data and theories. Scientists don't get to decide when to drop atom bombs...politicians do. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) CitizenX, you gave me a list of what governments and OTHER PEOPLE can and/or should do! No details with any of your "wishes", either. Anyone can say "better building codes" or "more fuel efficient cars". Big deal! Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself. Just what building codes do you suggest? Do you have any idea at all of practical building codes that would work and that ordinary working people could afford? Do you know HOW to build a more fuel efficient car? Anyone can expect OTHER PEOPLE to dream up ideas that actually work! It's all just magic! That's what technical people do, right? We just dream up anything we want and expect the techies to figure out how to do it, in a price range we can afford. They just have to wave those magic wands! I'd like a pony! Hey, I'd like everyone to have a pony! Get someone else do do it and get the government to deliver it! I'm yammering for those ponies! I'm doing the important part! The rest is just details, right? I was asking what YOU PERSONALLY could do! Besides attend demonstrations and "raising awareness". I suggest that anyone who can't do at least some if not most of the things I suggested is really just someone who can't contribute a single practical thing, including a proper understanding of what's involved. You know, the person on "Survivor" who everyone wants in SOMEONE ELSE'S TRIBE! What can you do personally to "go green", CitizenX? Can you build a wind or solar power installation yourself? Do you have any idea of what's involved? Can you even fix a broken plug on a lamp? Or is changing an incandescent light bulb over to a CFL the limit of your technical expertise? As I said, riding a bike and attending demonstrations does mice nuts to reduce carbon. What can YOU do for REAL? Edited August 8, 2011 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Wild Bill you are socially retarded. I want you to look over this over The sum total determines the extent of a person's psychopathy. PCL-R model of psychopathy Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism" • Glibness/superficial charm • Grandiose sense of self-worth • Pathological lying • Cunning/manipulative • Lack of remorse or guilt • Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric) • Callousness; lack of empathy • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle". • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom • Parasitic lifestyle • Poor behavioral control • Lack of realistic long-term goals • Impulsivity • Irresponsibility • Juvenile delinquency • Early behavior problems • Revocation of conditional release Traits not correlated with either factor • Promiscuous sexual behavior • Many short-term marital relationships • Criminal versatility • Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e. a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive) The ones marked red are the ones I've noticed Edited August 8, 2011 by CitizenX Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
Bonam Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) As I said, riding a bike and attending demonstrations does mice nuts to reduce carbon. What can YOU do for REAL? Well, looks like he's just provided us a demonstration of his practical skills. Apparently, he can throw around insults like "stupid" and "retard". It's interesting that in the other thread he wants less government interference, criticizes "paternalistic" policies, and says he'd rather the government just left him alone as long as he had his life and his property. On the other hand, here, he wants to mandate how everyone must reduce their energy usage and greenhouse gas emissions. How much more paternalistic does it get than the government telling you what kind of light bulb you are allowed to use? A remarkably inconsistent position. Edited August 8, 2011 by Bonam Quote
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Well, looks like he's just provided us a demonstration of his practical skills. Apparently, he can throw around insults like "stupid" and "retard". It's interesting that in the other thread he wants less government interference, criticizes "paternalistic" policies, and says he'd rather the government just left him alone as long as he had his life and his property. On the other hand, here, he wants to mandate how everyone must reduce their energy usage and greenhouse gas emissions. How much more paternalistic does it get than the government telling you what kind of light bulb you are allowed to use? A remarkably inconsistent position. You tell enough lies you've started believing it. Only a fool can fool himself. Edited August 8, 2011 by CitizenX Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
Bonam Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) If you tell enough lies you've started believing it. Generally, if you accuse someone of lying, it's good to point out specifically what it is you think is a lie. Where were the lies? That you have used the insults "stupid" and "retard"? True. That you have decried paternalistic policies? True. That mandates to use more efficient products, telling people what things they can use in their own homes or in their vehicles, is inherently paternalistic? True again. That this makes your position logically inconsistent? True once more. Insults and random accusations of deceit are not going to win you any debates. The funny thing is I actually tend to agree that carbon dioxide emissions contribute measurably to climate change and that some steps will need to be taken to avert excessive harm to the planetary climate. And, unlike yourself, I actually have the technical knowledge to contribute to taking some of these steps and have contributed to R&D in the field of zero emission energy production. But you, and your predecessor climate-zealots on this board, present the argument in such a way as to only repel people who might otherwise agree with you. Climate crusaders are really only shooting their own cause in the foot. If you want anyone to be swayed by your arguments, you need to be more polite, more eloquent, more logical, and more consistent. Just a friendly tip for a new forum member, before you earn too irredeemable of a reputation. Edited August 8, 2011 by Bonam Quote
Wild Bill Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Wild Bill you are socially retarded. I want you to look over this over The sum total determines the extent of a person's psychopathy. PCL-R model of psychopathy Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism" • Glibness/superficial charm • Grandiose sense of self-worth • Pathological lying • Cunning/manipulative • Lack of remorse or guilt • Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric) • Callousness; lack of empathy • Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle". • Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom • Parasitic lifestyle • Poor behavioral control • Lack of realistic long-term goals • Impulsivity • Irresponsibility • Juvenile delinquency • Early behavior problems • Revocation of conditional release Traits not correlated with either factor • Promiscuous sexual behavior • Many short-term marital relationships • Criminal versatility • Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e. a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive) The ones marked red are the ones I've noticed Ah yes! I asked you questions you can't or don't want to answer. Therefore, I must be a sociopath. I don't agree with you, so therefore I must have some mental problems. Loser! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 And, unlike yourself, I actually have the technical knowledge to contribute to taking some of these steps and have contributed to R&D in the field of zero emission energy production. I'm a green leprechaun...see I can lie too Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Ah yes! I asked you questions you can't or don't want to answer. Therefore, I must be a sociopath. I don't agree with you, so therefore I must have some mental problems. Loser! I can only explain thing so many times. Don't get down on your self your doing the best you can. Edited August 8, 2011 by CitizenX Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
Remiel Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I'm a green leprechaun...see I can lie too Accusing Bonam of lying about his scientific credentials is the folly of an idiot. Quote
Bonam Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I'm a green leprechaun...see I can lie too Congrats. Your first few posts on this forum were somewhat promising, starting the interesting topic on paternalistic policies and such. Unfortunately, you've now elected not to be taken seriously, and instead have chosen to waste your time tossing about insults. Oh well, to each their own I suppose. Enjoy. Quote
Wild Bill Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I'm a green leprechaun...see I can lie too Bonam is NOT lying! He has been on this board YEARS longer than you and has proven his technical background many times! He may possibly be the most technically proficient poster on this board. He's actually working on technology that may someday get some of us off this ball of rock. Can you google "spacex"? BTW, we have a seat reserved for you on the "B" Ark. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Wild Bill Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Well, that's it for me, people. I'm putting this "green leprechaun" on 'ignore'. He has descended so low that he's not even humerous anymore! I suspect I won't be alone in this action. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Bonam Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Accusing Bonam of lying about his scientific credentials is the folly of an idiot. Bonam is NOT lying! He has been on this board YEARS longer than you and has proven his technical background many times! He may possibly be the most technically proficient poster on this board. He's actually working on technology that may someday get some of us off this ball of rock. Thanks guys! Technically, the technology I'm working on is only applicable for propulsion once you're already in space though. Improving methods of actually getting off this ball of rock is a problem left to other engineers. For now anyway Edited August 8, 2011 by Bonam Quote
CitizenX Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Bonam is NOT lying! He has been on this board YEARS longer than you and has proven his technical background many times! He may possibly be the most technically proficient poster on this board. He's actually working on technology that may someday get some of us off this ball of rock. Can you google "spacex"? BTW, we have a seat reserved for you on the "B" Ark. Sure that excuse his behavior. Quote "The rich people have their lobbyists and the poor people have their feet." The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. - Plato
Michael Hardner Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Far from it...I want them to howl at the lemming response to what we should do about it. Wild Bill knows the difference between a converter and an inverter....most people don't. So what ? You're grasping for something to pat him on the back for. People who see established science as voodoo are displaying a basic character flaw IMO. It's a problem of immaturity and of ego, and to my mind it's as much of a blocker as those who blindly believe we need to DO SOMETHING without knowing why. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 The US deficit is a big problem. No consensus there. A similar disconnect exists in Canada when it comes to crime and punishment. There are lot of difficult problems where achieving political consensus is impossible. Climate change is not unusual. I think both of these are recent examples of the breakdown of our process. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 Ah yes! I asked you questions you can't or don't want to answer. But you have done exactly the same thing ! Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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