How Much Money Will You Pay For Green Energy?

[Tilter]

I'm a techie! I really don't understand where this idea came from that we have to pay EXTRA to be green! There are a lot of things we can do that would SAVE us money!

All these mega-project ideas, like provincial electricity companies building giant wind farms and such, all seem to deliver energy to us little folks FAR more expensively than what we have now!

This only makes sense, I guess. Why on earth would anyone expect that a government scheme would cost us LESS money? It never, ever has before!

If we think about individual generating and conserving schemes, just enough for our own needs, we open up a lot more opportunities. The big problem is a sufficiently large battery bank. Car batteries are a very poor choice, as they tend to go bad if you drain them too deeply. Tow motor and electric golf cart batteries work well!

The batteries used and being developed for electric and hybrid cars are an excellent choice! Right now they are very expensive brand new but surely they will start to show up in autowreckers and the like!

You do have to have some knowledge and talent to safely "roll your own" but it can be well worth it. If manufacturers offered more products for this market people could start to save some real money for themselves. Canadian Tire has started to offer home windmills and solar panels but they are still more expensive than buying from the regular power grid. It only makes sense for cottages up north, perhaps on islands where there is no conventional electricity available. Again, the "system" wants us to pay a premium.

Still, things are starting to change. Even 5 years from now might show a very different picture.

Boy--- are you ever a sceptic!!!

I don't understand how you can doubt the liberal government's propaganda, sorry, that should read "information" that the greening will produce 50,000 jobs, provide hydro forever on the wings of the wind and make Ontario into a paradise on earth.

OK, I don't myself understand how electricity can cost the hydro Company up to 80 cents a kilowatt hour and be sold to the consumer for a maximum of 11 cents a KH and be a viable method of providing Hydro to the consumer economically for the Hydro Company but then, I don't have the advantages that the McPremier has with all his economic advisors.

If it was anyone but the McPremier of our province, a politician known for his forthright truthfulness & honesty telling us these things I would suspect that someone was blowing smoke up our asses but we all know that Dultonne would never lie to us.

[Michael Hardner]

Boy--- are you ever a sceptic!!!

I don't understand how you can doubt the liberal government's propaganda, sorry, that should read "information" that the greening will produce 50,000 jobs, provide hydro forever on the wings of the wind and make Ontario into a paradise on earth.

OK, I don't myself understand how electricity can cost the hydro Company up to 80 cents a kilowatt hour and be sold to the consumer for a maximum of 11 cents a KH and be a viable method of providing Hydro to the consumer economically for the Hydro Company but then, I don't have the advantages that the McPremier has with all his economic advisors.

If it was anyone but the McPremier of our province, a politician known for his forthright truthfulness & honesty telling us these things I would suspect that someone was blowing smoke up our asses but we all know that Dultonne would never lie to us.

Actually, we were talking about science not politics.

There is so much sloppiness in such discussions - we need to be clear.

[TimG]

There is something called a tipping point. Without people like me expressing the urgency, and screaming for action nothing will ever be done.

Tipping points are unfalsifiable psuedo-scientific garbage that belongs in the same category as UFOs and psychic powers. There is no evidence that tipping points exist - even massive volcanoes or asteroids failed to disrupt the capacity of the earth to support life. The planet has a control system which can handle minor perturbations such as anthropegenic CO2.

The benefits of strong, early action on climate change outweigh the costs.

Stern is an economist. He is basing his claims on an economic analysis which inflates the harms of climate change and underestimates the cost of mitigation. However, this is progress. You now appear to be agreeing that this is an economic/engineering issue and climate scientists is largely irrelevant.

Climate change threatens the basic elements of life for people around the world access to water, food production, health, and use of land and the environment.

If you look at the basis for this claim you will see he talking about changes growing seasons and precipitation patterns which disrupt agriculture. A naive analysis that assumes that farmers are idiots and do not adjust their crops to suit a changing climate. No where does he suggest that society is going to disappear or that money will be irrelevant. Edited August 7, 2011 by TimG

[Bonam]

There are way too many people who fall for the propaganda being emitted by "grass roots" movements created and funded (indirectly or directly) by the oil companies of the world. I wouldn't be shocked if there was someone on this board who was funded by an oil company to spread misinformation in posts. It is really shocking how easy it s to manipulate people with enough money to pay a few people to spread misinformation.

People always say this whenever there are posters who post things they don't like. Care to point me to a job opening where I can get paid to write propaganda on internet forums? I'd love to see it. Heck, a little cash on the side for writing on forums sounds like a good deal too!

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Tipping points are unfalsifiable psuedo-scientific garbage that belongs in the same category as UFOs and psychic powers. There is no evidence that tipping points exist - even massive volcanoes or asteroids failed to disrupt the capacity of the earth to support life. The planet has a control system which can handle minor perturbations such as anthropegenic CO2.

After many thousands of years of recovery and mass extinctions...

We are currently at a point of mass extinction, created by us. You can go and say its not true because the sun is shining and you are alive, if you like. But mass extinctions can be gradual over thousands of years on the geologic scale of time.

We expend more resources than the Earth can support. Any species that uses more calories to obtain food than is in the food will go extinct unless it evolves. Conservatives don't want to evolve, as usual.

Who knows, millions of years from now a new race could be looking at the fossil time scale trying to figure out what caused our mass extinction like we try to figure out those before us. Too bad we wouldn't be able to warn them of the potential threat of the conservative ideology.

Edited August 7, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

People always say this whenever there are posters who post things they don't like. Care to point me to a job opening where I can get paid to write propaganda on internet forums? I'd love to see it. Heck, a little cash on the side for writing on forums sounds like a good deal too!

Yeah, because that position would be a public opening and not discreet lol.

In the states you can get paid to forge signatures for mortgage deals, you should look into it.

CONSERVATIVES AND CORPORATISM, Happily married.

[TimG]

After many thousands of years of recovery and mass extinctions...

But the capacity of the earth to support life was unaffected. Whether certain forms died off and others took their place is irrelevant. The "tipping point" fanatics would have a believe that the earth will no longer be habitable which is clearly complete nonsense.

We are currently at a point of mass extinction, created by us.

Actually, the science behind those claims of 'mass extictions' is pretty dodgy. It is a statisical analysis based on numerous questionable assumptions. The chances of it having any connection to reality is near zero.

We expend more resources than the Earth can support. Any species that uses more calories to obtain food than is in the food will go extinct unless it evolves.

And there is no evidence that humans will not be able to obtain food in the future.

[CitizenX]

And there is no evidence that humans will not be able to obtain food in the future.

UN report: climate change and food shortage major problems for Earth's future

Why Britain faces a bleak future of food shortages

Climate 'Tipping Points' May Arrive Without Warning, Says Top Forecaster

Research Finds That Earth's Climate is Approaching 'Dangerous' Point

Tipping elements in the Earth's climate system

Edited August 7, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

climate change and food shortage major problems for Earth's future

If you read what the UN report says it makes it clear that food shortages are a problem no matter what happens to climate.

Climate 'Tipping Points' May Arrive Without Warning, Says Top Forecaster

You could quote a "top UFO expert" but that does not make the claims any more credible.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, we were talking about science not politics.

There is so much sloppiness in such discussions - we need to be clear.

What is clear is that regardless of the "science" discussions, the decision(s) to act or not act will be made by others based on economics and politics. It is not good enough to predict the end of humankind and expect people to join in the cause.

Those who wish to pay to go green can do so right now...such choices were available long before the climate change circus came to town.

[CitizenX]

If you read what the UN report says it makes it clear that food shortages are a problem no matter what happens to climate.

And there is no evidence that humans will not be able to obtain food in the future

weeble wooble don't fall down

You could quote a "top UFO expert" but that does not make the claims any more credible.

Lets face it this is going no where, you just don't believe. It's wouldn't matter if every scientist in the world told you " hey this stuff is fact, and we are running out of time". You would just put on your fox news and ignore it.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Lets face it this is going no where, you just don't believe. It's wouldn't matter if every scientist in the world told you " hey this stuff is fact, and we are running out of time". You would just put on your fox news and ignore it.

The decision does not belong to you or the "scientists". Clearly there is and always has been warming on and off for many different reasons. Don't confuse "deniers" with those who recognize warming but refuse to jump off the economic cliff with you. Mankind will expend resources to adapt just as it has done for thousands of years.

[CitizenX]

What is clear is that regardless of the "science" discussions, the decision(s) to act or not act will be made by others based on economics and politics. It is not good enough to predict the end of humankind and expect people to join in the cause.

Those who wish to pay to go green can do so right now...such choices were available long before the climate change circus came to town.

People are running out of patience. Your going to start seeing more and more battle for Seattle, and G20 protests. If protesters can make the government pay 1 billion dollars every time they have a meeting they force people to hear them. Things are going to ramp up from here, and I will be at the next one. The 60's 2.0.

[bush_cheney2004]

People are running out of patience. Your going to start seeing more and more battle for Seattle, and G20 protests. If protesters can make the government pay 1 billion dollars every time they have a meeting they force people to hear them. Things are going to ramp up from here, and I will be at the next one. The 60's 2.0.

No way...you are still overdosing on American culture. "People" are still choosing the hydrocarbon economy, even if that means being more efficient. Have you personally gone off the grid, and if not, why not?

[CitizenX]

No way...you are still overdosing on American culture. "People" are still choosing the hydrocarbon economy, even if that means being more efficient. Have you personally gone off the grid, and if not, why not?

The 60's happened here in Canada too, wasn't just in the States. I'm not stupid I realize that society can't just stop using hydrocarbon cold turkey or even completely. Am I off the grid? No but I'm pretty sure I'm more environmentally responsible than you. Maybe if the Government subsidized the solar industry as much as they do the Oil Industry I would be. Feed in Tariffs would be a good start.

[bush_cheney2004]

The 60's happened here in Canada too, wasn't just in the States. I'm not stupid I realize that society can't just stop using hydrocarbon cold turkey or even completely.

Then why are you jumping up and down like a two-year-old?

Am I off the grid? No but I'm pretty sure I'm more environmentally responsible than you. Maybe if the Government subsidized the solar industry as much as they do the Oil Industry I would be. Feed in Tariffs would be a good start.

If you live in some parts of Canada, you already consume far more energy for heating than I do. Canada has one of the highest per-capita energy consumption rates on the planet...more than the US.

You are not off the grid and consume energy and resources just like the rest of us. This undermines your holier-than-thou preaching.

[Bonam]

People are running out of patience. Your going to start seeing more and more battle for Seattle...

There was a "battle for Seattle"? I musta missed it...

If protesters can make the government pay 1 billion dollars every time they have a meeting they force people to hear them.

Not really. We all heard that the G20 cost a lot, and that police clashed with protesters, but what the protesters were actually protesting about? Sorry, don't have a clue. And if I did, it certainly wouldn't change my stance on the topic.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Bonam

[TimG]

Lets face it this is going no where, you just don't believe. It's wouldn't matter if every scientist in the world told you " hey this stuff is fact, and we are running out of time". You would just put on your fox news and ignore it.

First, I don't watch Fox News. Can't stand it. Second, your silence on my response to your quotes of the Stern report is deafening.

[CitizenX]

Then why are you jumping up and down like a two-year-old?

It's people like me and the G20 protesters that get things done. It people like you that watch your house burn down and wonder what the economic viability of putting it out are, discussing the engineering feasibility. I'm jumping up and down saying enough thinking about it, enough talking about it, lets get started. You are happy to pass on this problem along with you debt crisis to the next generation. I'm saying lets grow up and start acting responsible, less selfish. I'm saying we as a society, as member of North America have got to start living a less excessive lifestyle. Without taking the lead there is no way the rest of the world follows.

If you live in some parts of Canada, you already consume far more energy for heating than I do. Canada has one of the highest per-capita energy consumption rates on the planet...more than the US.

You are not off the grid and consume energy and resources just like the rest of us. This undermines your holier-than-thou preaching.

I'm doing what I can. I don't live in a McHouse, I live in a 2 bedroom condo. I bike or walk most of the time and drive a small Toyota corola when I have to. I recycle. I go out of my way to buy local, which is eye opening for anyone that try's. I'm involved with a community garden.

This is not holier-than-thou preaching. This is leading by example. What else can I do when I see my neighbourhood on fire and all my neighbours standing around discussing the economy.

Edited August 7, 2011 by CitizenX

[Bonam]

It's people like me and the G20 protesters that get things done.

Slackers and criminals that burn police cars and break store windows are the people that "get things done"? I wouldn't want to live in a society where things "got done" by your standards, that's for sure.

It people like you that watch your house burn down and wonder what the economic viability of putting it out are, discussing the engineering feasibility. I'm jumping up and down saying thinking about it, enough talking about it lets get started. You are happy to pass on this problem along with you debt crisis to the next generation. I'm saying lets grow up and start acting responsible, less selfish. I'm saying we as a society, as member of North America have got to start living a less excessive lifestyle. Without taking the lead there is no way the rest of the world follows.

Why is it that North Americans have to "take the lead" and the rest of the world has to "follow"? What's with this paternalistic attitude of yours?

I'm doing what I can. I don't live in a McHouse, I live in a 2 bedroom condo. I bike or walk most of the time and drive a small Toyota corola when I have to.

I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, bike or walk more of the time, and drive a Honda Fit which is more efficient than a Toyota Corolla when I have to. I guess I'm even holier than thou.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

It's people like me and the G20 protesters that get things done. It people like you that watch your house burn down and wonder what the economic viability of putting it out are, discussing the engineering feasibility. I'm jumping up and down saying enough thinking about it, enough talking about it, lets get started.

Here's another Americanism for you: "How's that working out for ya?" - Dr. Phil

You are happy to pass on this problem along with you debt crisis to the next generation. I'm saying lets grow up and start acting responsible, less selfish. I'm saying we as a society, as member of North America have got to start living a less excessive lifestyle. Without taking the lead there is no way the rest of the world follows.

You are free to move to any other continent or society on the planet. What makes you think North America should have "the lead"? Or is that just code for a completely different (wealth transfer) agenda?

I'm doing what I can. I don't live in a McHouse, I live in a 2 bedroom condo. I bike or walk most of the time and drive a small Toyota corola when I have to. I recycle. I go out of my way to buy local, which is eye opening for anyone that try's. I'm involved with a community garden.

Big deal...so are millions of others but they have done it for decades instead of wrapping themselves in a green flag. Economics is like that, ya know? AGW high priests like Al Gore have already been busted for their lifestyle hypocrisy.

This is not holier-than-thou preaching. This is leading by example. What else can I do when I see my neighbourhood on fire and all my neighbours standing around discussing the economy.

You can respect the fact that your voice and lifestyle decisions are not more important than any of your neighbours. Political choices will ultimately be made based on economics, not "science".

[Bonam]

You can respect the fact that your voice and lifestyle decisions are not more important than any of your neighbours. Political choices will ultimately be made based on economics, not "science".

I would have agreed with you on this in the past but after recent fiascos I'm not so sure that it's economics as such that really drives political choices. These choices all too often seem to be driven by partisanship, media appearances, and shear panic, rather than a rational examination of the economics.

[CitizenX]

Slackers and criminals that burn police cars and break store windows are the people that "get things done"? I wouldn't want to live in a society where things "got done" by your standards, that's for sure.

Why is it that North Americans have to "take the lead" and the rest of the world has to "follow"? What's with this paternalistic attitude of yours?

I live in a 1 bedroom apartment, bike or walk more of the time, and drive a Honda fit which is more efficient than a Toyota Corolla when I have to. I guess I'm even holier than thou.

WOW...I can only assume you are just trying to bug me now. Just trying to egg me on. No one is this ignorant? Ohhhh.......Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. ~John Stuard Mill

[bush_cheney2004]

I would have agreed with you on this in the past but after recent fiascos I'm not so sure that it's economics as such that really drives political choices. These choices all too often seem to be driven by partisanship, media appearances, and shear panic, rather than a rational examination of the economics.

That was the fear during the AGW heyday when the Mann Hockey Stick ruled the day, but in 2008 reality reared up and bit them squarely in the ass. Carbon trading is dead as originally envisioned and going green has been co-opted by corporations for bigger sales advantage. As always, conservation and efficiencies will be exploited because of economics, not polar bear politics.

[Bonam]

WOW...I can only assume you are just trying to bug me now. Just trying to egg me on. No one is this ignorant? Ohhhh.......Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. ~John Stuard Mill

That's your response? The best you can do? You retort with "you're stupid"? The last of the three points you quoted was meant in mockery, the first two were serious.