Guest Derek L Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Seems to me that it is folks like the Council of Canadians who are trying to make it political. Putting such a sticker on a vehicle of mine would have nothing to do with my politics or whether I support a war. Our military personnel do what the country asks them to do regardless of their own opinions. That should be acknowledged by all citizens regardless of their politics. I often wonder if Maude Barlow (and her ilk) would “support the troops” if they were enganged in a mission to secure a scare natural resource. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 I would still find a further breakdown interesting…… The data is out there if you want to mine it... For the record, I’m not trying to disparage Vietnam Vets, regardless of being volunteers or draftees. Surely not...but I just wanted to debunk such myths that persist to this day. There are many others that don't survive a fact check. I think the relevance to this topic is that Americans learned what a mistake it was to blame and antagonize the troops for the war. "Support Our Troops" is a direct response and backlash to the behaviours and criticism of war protesters of the day. Anybody who spits on a soldier at an airport today will probably get their ass kicked...by the crowd. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Seems to me that it is folks like the Council of Canadians who are trying to make it political. Putting such a sticker on a vehicle of mine would have nothing to do with my politics or whether I support a war. Our military personnel do what the country asks them to do regardless of their own opinions. That should be acknowledged by all citizens regardless of their politics. That should be acknowledged by all citizens regardless of their politics. That seems to tacitly imply that the theres something wrong with people who dont display those kind of symbols. These stickers themselves are not a big deal, but I would just prefer that the government itself refrained from this activity. The problem is that in small doses patriotism, military idolitry, and nationalism can be good things. But in large doses they can cause huge problems. If these things become too big a part of the national dialog they will be used to browbeat political dissenters, and the people become weaker and the government stronger. OF COURSE any government loves the idea of the population worshipping the governments security apparatus... and some governments take their efforts a lot further than bumper stickers. In North Korea you see the same kind of massive military marches and parades that you used to see in Nazi Germany. The purpose was to stoke the flames of military idolitry, partiotism, and nationalism. Nations where these things are at high levels are lead into war too easily. Political opponents of military action are dismissed, labeled as "anti military", unpatriotic, or even accused of being traitors. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 That seems to tacitly imply that the theres something wrong with people who dont display those kind of symbols. It implies the exact opposite. Personally, I am not a big fan of bumper stickers of any kind. Whether one decides to acknowledge it publicly is their business. These stickers themselves are not a big deal, but I would just prefer that the government itself refrained from this activity. The problem is that in small doses patriotism, military idolitry, and nationalism can be good things. But in large doses they can cause huge problems. If these things become too big a part of the national dialog they will be used to browbeat political dissenters, and the people become weaker and the government stronger.OF COURSE any government loves the idea of the population worshipping the governments security apparatus... and some governments take their efforts a lot further than bumper stickers. In North Korea you see the same kind of massive military marches and parades that you used to see in Nazi Germany. The purpose was to stoke the flames of military idolitry, partiotism, and nationalism. Nations where these things are at high levels are lead into war too easily. Political opponents of military action are dismissed, labeled as "anti military", unpatriotic, or even accused of being traitors. These two paragraphs are exactly what I am talking about. A municipal government decides to publicly acknowedge the sacrifices some of it's citizens make for their country an you pull out the NAZI card. You make the expression of support for your military, the people who do your elected government's bidding on your behalf as an issue to support your own personal agenda instead of just a simple acknowledgment of their service to your country. If find it quite disgusting. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Sir Bandelot Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 If find it quite disgusting. Some people are quite capable of disliking what their own country does. They judge right vs wrong in absolute terms, not relative to the colour of a flag. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Surely not...but I just wanted to debunk such myths that persist to this day. There are many others that don't survive a fact check. I think the relevance to this topic is that Americans learned what a mistake it was to blame and antagonize the troops for the war. "Support Our Troops" is a direct response and backlash to the behaviours and criticism of war protesters of the day. Anybody who spits on a soldier at an airport today will probably get their ass kicked...by the crowd. Agreed, it says a lot that something as simple as a bumper sticker or Poppy is greatly appreciated by veterans, currently serving members and their families as a small token of thanks for their service and sacrifice………I still don’t see how some draw the comparison between supporting the troops and supporting the mission....... Quote
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Some people are quite capable of disliking what their own country does. They judge right vs wrong in absolute terms, not relative to the colour of a flag. So what, maybe many in the military don't like what their country asks them to do at times but they do it anyway because that's what they signed up to do. They do their job regardless of their politics. Would you like them to tell you to get stuffed if the day ever comes when you need them personally, just because they don't like your politics? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Sir Bandelot Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 So what, maybe many in the military don't like what their country asks them to do at times but they do it anyway because that's what they signed up to do. They do their job regardless of their politics. Would you like them to tell you to get stuffed if the day ever comes when you need them personally, just because they don't like your politics? I would never tell anyone in the military to "get stuffed" just because I don;t like what they're doing at the behest of the government. I would criticize the police if they used brutal tactics against people who didn't deserve it. That doesn't mean I don't want police to do the right thing. That's bipolar thinking. Quote
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 It implies the exact opposite. Personally, I am not a big fan of bumper stickers of any kind. Whether one decides to acknowledge it publicly is their business. These two paragraphs are exactly what I am talking about. A municipal government decides to publicly acknowedge the sacrifices some of it's citizens make for their country an you pull out the NAZI card. You make the expression of support for your military, the people who do your elected government's bidding on your behalf as an issue to support your own personal agenda instead of just a simple acknowledgment of their service to your country. If find it quite disgusting. You can dismiss those things all you want, and I specifically said these bumper stickers in themselves arent a big deal, but they arent necessary and they beg the question how much should the government be trying to promote nationalism. First you proclaim that "All citizens should acknowledge their support"... with that comes assertion that citizens that dont "acknowledge their support" are somehow not doing what you feel is their duty. And that is exactly how nationalism and military idolitry end up being used politically. Youre doing that right here... getting all upset and trying to make me out to be some kind of villain simply because dont think the government should engage in overt programs to promote nationalism. And youve made it clear that citizens who dont publically acknowlege their support for the military are not your idea of good citizens. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 I would never tell anyone in the military to "get stuffed" just because I don;t like what they're doing at the behest of the government. I would criticize the police if they used brutal tactics against people who didn't deserve it. That doesn't mean I don't want police to do the right thing. That's bipolar thinking. The military is doing the right thing, their job as their elected government has asked them to do it. You don't want any other kind of military. Derek L is right when he says some people can't separate the the mission from those we ask to do it. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 The military is doing the right thing, their job as their elected government has asked them to do it. You don't want any other kind of military. Derek L is right when he says some people can't separate the the mission from those we ask to do it. Yup...and those who serve protect the rights of others to quickly pull out the Nazi card. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 Yup...and those who serve protect the rights of others to quickly pull out the Nazi card. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 You can dismiss those things all you want, and I specifically said these bumper stickers in themselves arent a big deal, but they arent necessary and they beg the question how much should the government be trying to promote nationalism. First you proclaim that "All citizens should acknowledge their support"... with that comes assertion that citizens that dont "acknowledge their support" are somehow not doing what you feel is their duty. And that is exactly how nationalism and military idolitry end up being used politically. Youre doing that right here... getting all upset and trying to make me out to be some kind of villain simply because dont think the government should engage in overt programs to promote nationalism. And youve made it clear that citizens who dont publically acknowledge their support for the military are not your idea of good citizens. It is people like you who have turned this into a political issue. The military does not get to decide what it's duty is, you do through your government. Our military is doing its duty whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I have never said that anyone should have to publicly acknowledge their support or that it is even necessary but have to wonder about those who have such a big problem with those who do. I think it is a government's job to promote nationalism, we are a country after all. Is every civil servant a Nazi because they do their governments bidding, or just ones who carry out policies you don't agree with? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Sir Bandelot Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 The military is doing the right thing, their job as their elected government has asked them to do it. No they're not, and I never voted to elect this government. So in my view it's the wrong thing. And I feel sad for those who died and who were maimed, both Canadians and non-Canadians. This war is a futile endeavour that did nothing good for Afghanistan or Canada. Other than secure some economic contracts. I don't support those methods. Quote
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 No they're not, and I never voted to elect this government. So in my view it's the wrong thing. And I feel sad for those who died and who were maimed, both Canadians and non-Canadians. This war is a futile endeavour that did nothing good for Afghanistan or Canada. Other than secure some economic contracts. I don't support those methods. You just don't get it. This war was not the idea of our troops, they are the ones who got stuck with it. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Sir Bandelot Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 You just don't get it. This war was not the idea of our troops, they are the ones who got stuck with it. And I don't blame them for it. Some pages ago I wrote "give me a bumper sticker that says 'Support the troops, NOT THE WAR!'" but they don't make any of those, it seems. Anyway, cyclical conversation. When do we get to talk about Israel?? Quote
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 And I don't blame them for it. How big of you. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 It is people like you who have turned this into a political issue. The military does not get to decide what it's duty is, you do through your government. Our military is doing its duty whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I have never said that anyone should have to publicly acknowledge their support or that it is even necessary but have to wonder about those who have such a big problem with those who do. I think it is a government's job to promote nationalism, we are a country after all. Is every civil servant a Nazi because they do their governments bidding, or just ones who carry out policies you don't agree with? I never said ANYONE was a Nazi. I provided a couple of examples of the dangers of nationalism and military idolitry. Facists and dictators are just obvious examples because actively encouraging reverence of the governments security apparatus was one of the core concepts they operated on. those who have such a big problem with those who do. I dont know any of those people. Like I said, Im totally fine with people making any statements they want to. People should wear poppies, buy bumper stickers, wear ribbons or whatever they please. I think it is a government's job to promote nationalism, we are a country after all. I think the government should promote patriotism and nationalism to the extend they do their best to make a country into something its people are proud of but beyond that Id rather they didnt engage in direct propoganda. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Sir Bandelot Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 How big of you. So even when I do show how I support the troops, that's still not good enough for you. What next, mandatory goose-stepping up and down the square? Quote
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 You just don't get it. This war was not the idea of our troops, they are the ones who got stuck with it. Everyone knows that. Members of the armed forces are not in any way to blame for these decisions. But theres a healthy demographic on both sides that cant separate these two paradigms. In a country where military reverence is high the political class will ALWAYS use that to its advantage if it wants to take the country to war. The line between "the troops", and "the mission" gets blurred, and those that oppose the mission get accused of being anti military or unpatriotic... or some dont voice their dissapproval of the mission out of respect for the troops. I saw the way this message was used in the US during the last Iraq war. There was a pretty consistant theme promoted by some that basically suggested once the decision to go to war was made, and political opposition was "anti-troops". Both sides adopted the whole "support the troops" narrative, and tried to use it to browbeat their political opponents. I remember thinking that it was probably a pretty annoying and insulting thing for the troops to watch. It didnt seem useful or productive. This has become the new political correctness, and its pretty obvious that any who posted in this thread in support of the idea that the government should not directly engage in these types of programs was gonna get an earfull because of that. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 So even when I do show how I support the troops, that's still not good enough for you. What next, mandatory goose-stepping up and down the square? I've never said anything should be mandatory. When people volunteer to do their country's bidding, no questions asked, including being shot at and blown up by IED's, I think it is very big of you not to blame them. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Everyone knows that. Members of the armed forces are not in any way to blame for these decisions. But theres a healthy demographic on both sides that cant separate these two paradigms. In a country where military reverence is high the political class will ALWAYS use that to its advantage if it wants to take the country to war. The line between "the troops", and "the mission" gets blurred, and those that oppose the mission get accused of being anti military or unpatriotic... or some dont voice their dissapproval of the mission out of respect for the troops. I saw the way this message was used in the US during the last Iraq war. There was a pretty consistant theme promoted by some that basically suggested once the decision to go to war was made, and political opposition was "anti-troops". Both sides adopted the whole "support the troops" narrative, and tried to use it to browbeat their political opponents. I remember thinking that it was probably a pretty annoying and insulting thing for the troops to watch. It didnt seem useful or productive. This has become the new political correctness, and its pretty obvious that any who posted in this thread in support of the idea that the government should not directly engage in these types of programs was gonna get an earfull because of that. So according to you we have a situation where any public support must be political. How sad. Edited July 31, 2011 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 So even when I do show how I support the troops, that's still not good enough for you. What next, mandatory goose-stepping up and down the square? Its hard to way whats next which is why I worry about this kind of thing. Its potentially a slippery slope. These stickers on some government vehicles are obviously not that big a deal... a pretty harmless token gesture. But if people support the government engaging in this kind of activity, Im curious where they might personally draw the line. Is there a limit? Would they support fairly extensive government programs aimed at making sure the people "appreciate" the governments security apparatus enough? What about a national media campaigns? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Remiel Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 These stickers on some government vehicles are obviously not that big a deal... a pretty harmless token gesture. This is part of why I find annoying about them too. It is a feel good campaign that makes a few people feel righteous, demonizes others, and provides very little material support to the troops. Me? I bought two of the hats at the Canex. I never wear it (not even sure where mine is right now), but it was a damned sight more than buying a 50 cent sticker. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 This is part of why I find annoying about them too. It is a feel good campaign that makes a few people feel righteous, demonizes others, and provides very little material support to the troops. Me? I bought two of the hats at the Canex. I never wear it (not even sure where mine is right now), but it was a damned sight more than buying a 50 cent sticker. The topic isn't about buying them, it's about displaying them on government vehicles. It's about the government showing support for the troops. I'm sure people who serve, who have family members serving, appreciate a reminder that they are not forgotten - that their service is appreciated. Quote
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